Where’s the Schiavo post? I think I can out comment McGehee on that topic by a factor of ten.

I’ll take that under advisement when I get home tonight.

Go for it, Matt, since I won’t be playing. The whole thing still makes me sick to my stomach.

You know what makes me sick to my stomach? Maple doughnuts.

Huh. I like maple donuts.

Not as much as pretty much anything prepended with “Bavarian Cream” (and which the g-phrase actually thought was Barvarian Cream--which was very cute).

Yes, it has been a while. Im flattered that i am remembered. Anyway, back to the topic.

‘I haven’t accused him of being a dictator that I’m aware of, so I assume that you actually want to address that comment to the writer of the post on Babalu, correct?’

Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding there. It was a comment relating to the article you linked to, which made the absurd allegation that Chavez is a dictator.

‘Thank rising oil prices for economic growth, not Chavez.’

Since Venezuela is only the 5th largest supplier of oil to the world, thanking rising oil prices is a little crude. The reformation of the state owned oil company, ‘Petroleos de Venezeuela’ has had a much bigger role to play in Venezuela’s increasing productivity in regards to oil.

‘GDP 2000 5,948
Real GDP 2003 5,100’

Ooops. Maybe you forgot to mention that Venezuela’s GDP increased by 30% in the first quarter of 2004.

‘Unemployment 2000 13.9%
Unemployment 2003 21% ‘

Unemployment is an issue in Venezuela. But im confused as to what your point is? Since the US, West Germany, the UK etc, etc (all strongly capitalist nations) have been struggling with unemployment in recent years....do you seriously think its fair to attack Venezuela’s unemployment problem? The US has seen a surge of unemployment under Bush, as well as a deficit problem.

‘Next up, you are aware that the democratically elected fellow was a part of two failed coup attempts before he joined the democratic political process, right?’

I find it ironic that a right wing American is against coup attempts. Enough have been attempted against Castro, ignoring the infamous CIA orchestrated coup against democratically elected President Salvador Allende of Chile. This paved the way for right wing dictator Augusto Pinochet to seize power.

‘Lastly, as for Venezuela being the brightest light in the region’

Which it is, thanks to Chavez and modern socialism. Considering the fact that from 1970 to 1998 the per capita income of Venezuela fell by a gigantic 35% percent, i think its fair to call the achievements Venezuela has made in the past few years miraculous.

http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuela_2005_06.pdf

^This a good article providing information on Venezuela’s progress.

"Thanking rising oil prices is a little crude.”

That’s almost the funniest unintentionally funny thing you said.

Pun intended for all you observant gents

Heheh. Puns.

Okay, anyway, I’m not sure exactly where to start with this, so I’ll just jump in somewhat randomly.

re: Unemployment

Most of the European countries (their capitalist streaks being mighty questionable, especially in reference to France and Germany) run current unemployment of over 10%. I find it odd that you would compare Venezuala’s numbers with theirs without noting just how much worse the numbers are. Sure, other nations have problems with unemployment, but a rate of over 20% isn’t merely a problem, it’s a sure sign of a seriously unhealthy economy.

As for throwing the US into that mix, and referring to our unemployment problem, I would just happily note that most of the rest of the world would trade their unemployment rate for ours any day. At 5.1%, we’re just half of the unemployed that you’d find in most of Europe and just a quarter of Venezuala at their worst. Hell, I’m of the opinion that our unemployment problem is a tiny thing, I can’t, off hand, remember when we topped double digits (maybe in the 80’s, almost certainly in the 70’s), and 4% to 6% is a pretty happy range.

Okay, the g-phrase is here. I must cook dinner. I’ll try to come back and talk about this further later.

Not only is 5% employment good, it’s about as good as you can get or at least sustain. Any less than about 4% and inflation would just be crazy.

And rising doughnut prices would make me very cranky.

Mmmm, maple doughnuts.  OMG, I so want one now.  Thanks, Matt.  I’ll have to just settle for a few extra sets tomorrow and treat myself to the Dulce de Leche in the freezer.

And that whole McGehee thing?  I don’t think we could ever out comment The Man.

I know I am really deep tonight, but I just don’t feel like engaging The Commie.  His mind won’t change; his position won’t change, and I think he only comes around when bored.  I refuse to be an intellectual prostitute.

You keep calling her the “g-phrase”.  Wouldn’t “independent clause” be a little more accurate?

I know, I know...but I’m falling behind in comments.

Well, what’s the drill?  Are we doing petroleum puns now?  Oil join in.

’Most of the European countries (their capitalist streaks being mighty questionable, especially in reference to France and Germany)’

They certainly arnt socialist, thats for sure. Id say both France and Germany are typical captailist nations.

‘I find it odd that you would compare Venezuala’s numbers with theirs without noting just how much worse the numbers are. Sure, other nations have problems with unemployment, but a rate of over 20% isn’t merely a problem, it’s a sure sign of a seriously unhealthy economy.’

20%? Since you are using figures that are over 2 years old, and from a period where unemployment spiked due to the oil industry shutdown id say you are being VERY unfair. Venzuela’s employment dropped to 13.7% in the last part of 2004, a little above Germany’s. I think the comparison was sound.

‘Hell, I’m of the opinion that our unemployment problem is a tiny thing, I can’t, off hand, remember when we topped double digits’

I believe unemployment IS rising in the US however.

Rae, i see you havnt changed at all. Still acting the mature woman while making constant ad hominem fallacies and even personal insults against myself. Its just weak to be honest.

I think this thread is a barrel of laughs.

Where do you get that unemployment is rising? Intuition?

And to call Germany and France (with their hugely expensive welfare safety nets, nationalized medicine, six week vacations and 35 hour work weeks mandated by government) “typical capitalist nations” is ridiculous. If you don’t consider France to be a socialist country then I agree with Rae, we’ll never be able to agree on anything at all.

And Z, American unemployment hit 10% in ‘82 and ‘83. That’s the only time it’s been that high since at least 1948.

Thanks for looking that up, Matt. I was going to find it and then the, ahem, “independent clause” showed up and looked like she was wondering why I hadn’t cooked dinner yet.

Anyway, I think we’ve exhausted most of the possibilities of this conversation since I don’t believe we’re going to persuade the commie to budge even a bit.

On to the next thing…

’If you don’t consider France to be a socialist country then I agree with Rae, we’ll never be able to agree on anything at all.’

I cant believe anyone would call France a socialist nation while keeping a straight face. This is pretty much exclusively an American concept, ever since France became America’s public enemy number one. I remember people calling Kerry a ‘commie,’ so it doesnt really surprise me.

‘with their hugely expensive welfare safety nets’

The US is also a welfare state, as is pretty much every other developed Western nation.

‘nationalized medicine’

Again, a trait of many capitalist nations.

And Z, why should i budge a bit? I dont see you ‘budging’ in any hurry.

There doesn’t seem to be much of a pattern to Venezuela’s unemployment, certainly not if this graph of unemployment rates from 1995-2004 is accurate.  Also when you consider unemployment figures tend to be somewhat mutable.  FWIW, the CIA World Factbook put it at 17.1% for 2004.  Unemployment under Chavez doesn’t look like its been consistently going up, but neither has it been consistently going down.

“Since Venezuela is only the 5th largest supplier of oil to the world, thanking rising oil prices is a little crude. The reformation of the state owned oil company, ‘Petroleos de Venezeuela’ has had a much bigger role to play in Venezuela’s increasing productivity in regards to oil.” Only the 5th largest supplier of oil to the world?  Only?  I’d need a little more support for your argument that reformation of Petroleos de Venezuela to believe that had more of an effect than abnormally high oil prices.  (It’s like saying that Star Wars Episode I and II were only the 5th and 17th highest grossing films of all time, so the appeal of Jimmy Smits had a much bigger role in the success of Revenge of the Sith.)

Incidentally, German unemployment is the highest they’ve had since pre-World War II, which is just a little bit scary.  And generally eastern Germany tends to have an unemployment rate double that of western Germany for some darn reason.  (Currently 10.4% vs. 20.7%.) Gee, I’m really scratching my head over that one.

I’ve thought France was socialist long before they became “public enemy number one” (which is a bit of hyperbole. I consider France an ally, and I think most Americans do, too).

Welfare in the US is in no way comparable to the typical Euro system. Unemployment benefits in the US are 0.2% of GDP, while Germany and France pay 1.3% and 1.8% respectively. And nationalized medicine, while it may be common in otherwise capitalist countries, is a socialist program (and doomed to failure).

Having the entire month of August off as a mandatory vacation isn’t something I would expect to see in a free-market captalist country.

FC, it’s going to be a lot simpler for these discussions to continue if you can try phrasing your arguments in the terms you know the rest of us recognize and accept. Quibbling over what is and isn’t socialism at this stage of the game is unproductive, and since you’re pretty much the only one here who contends that socialism doesn’t include France, you’ll make no headway at all.

’the CIA World Factbook put it at 17.1% for 2004.’

As of October last year, the unemployment rate fell to 13.7%

‘I’d need a little more support for your argument that reformation of Petroleos de Venezuela to believe that had more of an effect than abnormally high oil prices.’

Well since non-oil industries in Venezuela have also received surges in growth, your point is a hard one to argue. Since the reformatiom, Petroleos De Venezuela has continued to enjoy economic growth....which has benefitted the entire nation.

‘Incidentally, German unemployment is the highest they’ve had since pre-World War II, which is just a little bit scary. ‘

I agree, considering its one of the worlds leading industrial nations.

‘And generally eastern Germany tends to have an unemployment rate double that of western Germany for some darn reason.  (Currently 10.4% vs. 20.7%.) Gee, I’m really scratching my head over that one.’

Me too. Funny that how after the transition to a market economy, East Germany’s unemployment sky rocketed. It still hasnt adapted to this flawed system.

‘so the appeal of Jimmy Smits had a much bigger role in the success of Revenge of the Sith.)’

Im sure it did. His threads were damn cool.

‘(and doomed to failure).’

I live in the UK. Our NHS hasnt even come close to failing in over 50 years. Try again.

Sure, respond to my parenthetical aside, but not the meat of the argument.

Flawed system. Tee hee.

I have been directed to this comment section as apparently some Venezuelan information is needed.

Indeed....

I am not going to get into all of Filthy Commie comments, except to say that some might not be wrong but their interpretation is totally incorrect and out of context.  For example

The economical pseudo bounce of 2004.  When an economy collapses by 20 % and “bounces back” by 15% it still went down by 5% (by the way, I have no idea where that 30% comes from as I have not even seen it in the abundant chavista propaganda to which I am daily subjected here).  In other words, to put Filthy Commie straight: Venezuela GNP is still BELOW the 1998 figure IN SPITE of an oil price nearly triple of what it was then.  And during 6 days a lot more of babies were made.  Any reliable pocket calculator will reveal that the per capita GP can only go down in such circumstances.  And to make sure that there is no doubt, the period of troubles for Chavez is about 2 years out of the more of 6 he already has, that is, the overall stagnation of Venezuelan economy since 1998 can only be attributed to Chavez policies.  One could say that if Venezuela had had a semi serious government these years we would have grown at at least 4% annually, which makes the Chavez growth deficit of at least a 25%, in real terms.

The second thing worth bitching at and one thing that people reprot it too freely: unemployement.  Venezuela DOES NOT have reliable unemployemnt statistics for very simple reasons 1) the govwernment does nto want to show how bad it truly is and 2) there is no incentive whatsoever for people to report their unemployment.  As a consequence conservative estimates put the real employement at no more than 40%, unemployment at 20% and underemployment at 40 to 50% depending how you define it.  Note that a lot of education programs, work programs etc have helped the government to pretend that the unemployment figures are going down when in fact they are just hidden by these programs which are useless since the private sector is not generating the jobs to absorb the “graduates”.

By the way, nice blog.  And I hope the owner forgives me if I wrote too much and if it could look like a little bit of advertisment for mine.

Socialism is a system of government based on collective philosophy and public ownership of MOST major industries. This is not a popularity contest McGehee. France is not socialist. Id love for you to give some examples of ‘capitalist’ nations, excluding the US. It would be interesting, since you apparently see red even in a free market country like France.

Matt Moore, i apologise but that was that was the part that striked me most about your post. How did you figure that all nationalized healthcare is doomed to failure?

As for the benefits of France and Germany taking up a larger portion of GDP, (Which to be honest i wasnt aware of) dont you attribute that to higher unemployment in those 2 countries?

Um, no.
The classic definition of socialism is: “The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved. “

Even under modern interpretations, socialism is characterized not by state ownership of industries, but by high taxes and extensive government entitlement programs.

Medicare is a socialist program.  Social Security, welfare, unemployment, all are socialist programs. 

Maybe you don’t see it that way, but you aren’t going to get anywhere arguing in semantics that no one else understands.

Boy, this conversation is a gas.  Can we refine our arguments a little, maybe?

’The classic definition of socialism is:’

Thats not the classic definition, since socialism is much older than Marxism, or indeed Marx himself. I dont want to delve deeper into a semantics debate here, but that IS NOT the ‘classic’ definition of socialism.

‘Even under modern interpretations, socialism is characterized not by state ownership of industries, but by high taxes and extensive government entitlement programs.’

Totally absurd as you could successfully label many rich Western nations as socialist under that definition. But anyway, im somewhat confused here. I thought you just gave your definition of socialism as transition period relating to communism? Now it relates to high taxes and government programs?

‘Social Security, welfare, unemployment, all are socialist programs. ‘

Anything that involves some amount of government control in the economy could be called a ‘socialist program.’ The US adapted Social Security decades ago, and even right wing Presidents like Eisenhower and Reagan didnt destroy it. Would you call the US socialist, based on the fact they have interventionalist government programs running?

Socialism is inherently flawed not because of GDP, unemployment or other economic indicators. It is flawed because it is socialist. It makes the state the measure of all things. It denies the autonomy of the individual. It prefers stasis to each man’s freedom to be an acting being and seek out his fulfillment with the talents given to him by the Creator. Socialism subverts economic choice which is at the heart of any free society.  The freedom to choose how one will live his live, earn his money and spend his money.  Socialism constrains business which constrains personal choice.  It assumes the wisdom of the state and band of semi-autonomous elites rather than the wisdom of freely acting persons. The US system is more of a mixed system and you FC are being intellectually dishonest if you deny that France and Germany are socialist countries.  The US system is flawed to the degree that socialist principles have been allowed to infect it. 

The UK health system might not come anywhere near failing, but that is a typical socialist argument to make. The program is still functioning (never mind that it functions at the expense of commerce and economic and ultimately individual human freedom.) so it must be good. Never mind the individuals it fails, right? The program lives! All hail the glorious state!

Rae, i see you havnt changed at all. Still acting the mature woman while making constant ad hominem fallacies and even personal insults against myself. Its just weak to be honest.

Yes.  That’s me, the girl-pretending-to-be-the-woman, spewing conservative, static, regirgitated opinions. 

I hardly call my saying that your opinions rarely change as a personal insult, Commie.  It is obvious that you only appear with a big wooden spoon in your hand.  Otherwise, why not start a blog of your own?

Now, pass the maple doughnuts.

Ok, this whole blog has spiralled way out of control as it is.....Im certainly not going to take the bait and have another messy debate on the feasibility of socialism. As for your comments on the UK health system, well i LIVE in the UK and DIRECTLY benefit from it. You know nothing about the system from either secondary or primary knowledge, so im not taking that up with you either.

Well, you could respond to what Daniel has to say on the topic of Venezuala since it is something with which he has much more intimate knowledge than you.

I mean, if you wanted to get back on topic.

’except to say that some might not be wrong’

Im flattered. To the best of my knowledge, nothing i said was factually inaccurate.

Daniel, in response to your post i think its very important to measure the economic growth in Venezuela against the problems the country has been facing in recent years, i.e an attempted coup and an oil industry shutdown. Im struggling to find GNP figures for Venezuela in 1998....hopefully i will soon.

As for unemployment, well clearly someone is noting it. The CIA put it at 17.1% (less than your harsh estimate) and the Venezuelan government put it at 13.7% as of October last year.

Oh, Commie, I am such an anglophile.  So this entire time I should have been reading your comments with a British accent?

I guess so! I should of gone out my way to fit in words like ‘colour’ and ‘recognise.’

FC, if your government run health care system fails you what are your options?

So no comments on the inherentt philosophical flaws of socialism? Maybe you need some time to check with the “collective” as to what the philosophy is?

Your attempts to bait me are falling on deaf ears. Why should i debate/explain my beliefs with someone who is clearly inherently opposed to them? I havnt attacked your political philosophy, (whatever it is - frankly i dont care) and i wouldnt expect you to defend it if i did. Socialism is my ideology. If you dont like it, maybe you should try and get me arrested on ‘terrorist’ charges or something. We commies are out to get you you know. Ask McCarthy.

’FC, if your government run health care system fails you what are your options?’

You clearly dont know much about our system. The NHS provides healthcare, as well as major operations for no cost. If you are rich or too good for the NHS, you can get private healthcare from private companys. You have to pay for this of course, kind of like you do in America. So we have two options.

Uh, McCarthy was right. At least that there were Communists in the State Department and that they were, in fact, out to get us.

Excellent point, Matt.

And I really do think Patrick should run for public office someday. 

Seriously, Patrick.

Well, then the British system is not nationalized heath care as I meant it. Some Canadian provinces, until very recently, didn’t even allow citizens to buy private health insurance because it might encourage doctors to treat patients privately, for profit (oh, the horror!)

Anyway, that’s nationalized, too me. It’s a monopoly and it’s run by the government.

To me. Too many o’s in that to.

McCarthy WASNT right. He accused a bunch of innocent men of supposed ‘crimes’ they had nothing to do with. He ruined lives for his own political gain. The numbers on his list were constantly changing, and he couldnt substantiate his wild accusations in ANY case. So the Soviet Union apparently had spies inside the US government. Ive always been confused as to how this makes McCarthy a hero. Point me in the direction of some US government workers McCarthy was responsible for exposing as traitors.

If you are rich or too good for the NHS, you can get private healthcare from private companys. You have to pay for this of course, kind of like you do in America. So we have two options.

So, the system really doesn’t “work” then? I mean, if it did, why would you need the option of private care? And yes, I am aware that the system provides healthcare and operations at now cost. Any idea what the waiting lists are like?

Your attempts to bait me are falling on deaf ears. Why should i debate/explain my beliefs with someone who is clearly inherently opposed to them? I havnt attacked your political philosophy, (whatever it is - frankly i dont care) and i wouldnt expect you to defend it if i did. Socialism is my ideology.

Socialism is inherently an attack on free markets, freedom of choice, and therefore personal freedom. If you don’t expect to explain yourself tne perhaps you should refrain from espousing your failed ideology; an ideology that at its core was and still is “out to get us.” The only difference between the past and now is that communism is such an unmitgated failure that it doed not have the strength or following to actually get anywhere near us let alone “get us.” Now, rather than the Communism of empire the movement cloaks itself in mainstream terms and people are ignorant enough to fall for it.

’Well, then the British system is not nationalized heath care as I meant it.’

We have a nationalized healthcare system that is run by the Government.

‘didn’t even allow citizens to buy private health insurance because it might encourage doctors to treat patients privately, for profit’

Over here a lot of Doctors work for the NHS, but also do private operations. Of course they reap in bigger financial rewards this way but the work is far less steady. There are no laws here banning private healthcare, far from it.

I said he was right on one point, which you conceded (there were Soviet spies in the US government). Who said he was a hero? Stop pretending I made arguments I’d never make.

McCarthy was correct, but he was craaaaazy. Right message, wrong messenger.

I think saying he was right is totally inane, as NONE of his accusations were.

"So the Soviet Union apparently had spies inside the US government.”

’So, the system really doesn’t “work” then?’

The system works fine, and has done for over half a century. Private care is taken by the rich and occasionally by people who need an IMMEDIATE operation. (In the case of transplants etc, the NHS sometimes cannot accomplish this) The NHS is overwhelmingly used by the majority of the British public. Since we have a pretty high life expectancy rate, i think its fair to say the NHS ‘works.’

‘Any idea what the waiting lists are like?’

It depends on the operation, as i said. I mean ive had minor surgery with none whatsoever.

Hey!  FC is just trying to catch up to me in comment total!!!!

Ummm, I don’t mind Nathan being above me, but I won’t stand for a Commie to be.

FC

I think you are wrong on some of your “facts”.  But I know better than trying to argue, specially when you gleefully bring CIA numbers forward.  I mean, when I say that nobody in Venezuela knows for sure the unemployment numbers and you, a commie, bring as a reliable source the CIA one does not know wether to laugh or cry.....

However I will bring attention on that “dark legend” that I am sick and tired of hearing from people like you.

Chavez has been sworn in office in February 1999.  In other words he has been ruling for 6 years and 4 months todate.  Of which slightly more than 2 are really the conflict years, from April 2002 until Auguts 2004.  You can twist that reckoning anyway you want, but the economical balance of Venezuela is due only to Chavez rule at this point.  In 4 years of unopposed rule the currency went down from 550 to the dollar to 2150 (street value 2700), and the GNP is barely returning to 1998 level while population went up by a few % points.  Such a disaster cannot be blamed only on the opposition.

It takes two to tango and no matter what, Chavez is largely to blame, for his arrogance, his incompetence, his disregard for the basic form of democratic dialogue.  So please, go elsewhere with this BS about poor Chavez victim of nasty opposition.

’a commie’

Im not a commie.

‘bring as a reliable source the CIA one does not know wether to laugh or cry.....’

The CIA figure is off. I merely used it to indicate that even their over the time estimate was lower than yours.

‘However I will bring attention on that “dark legend” that I am sick and tired of hearing from people like you.’

Whatever. Cant you be civil? Im sick and tired fo hearing from people like you.

‘Such a disaster cannot be blamed only on the opposition.’

Im confused as to where the ‘disaster’ is. The power of Venezuela’s economy is rising. This is an undenialble fact.

‘his disregard for the basic form of democratic dialogue. ‘

Explain.