There’s a difference between the right that opposes Democratic policies and the VRWC that launches hundreds of frivolous lawsuits challenging the President’s citizenship, or that writes books and makes “documentaries” claiming a homosexual relationship with the President, or that alleges the President is a murderer, or that alleges the President is a foreign agent.

Or maybe there isn’t.

If you listened to the interview, that’s clearly what President Clinton was referring to, because he referred to the baseless claim (which had a slew of frivolous lawsuits of its own) that he murdered Vince Foster--a claim that’s still standard red meat among the Limbaugh/Coulter/Medved-type clowns. I don’t know if that was in the story you linked to or not, because the link is dead (damn you Google!). But I’m guessing not. There was a time when journalists would provide context. Nowadays media in general and the AP in particular like to polarize everything by removing context and focus on reactions instead.

You’re right, there was definitely no contect--although I can’t believe the link is already dead. What the hell?

To the meat of it, I understand what you’re saying (although, what’s this about someone claiming a gay relationship with the President? And which one? I missed that completely--the last rumor of that nature with a White House denizen that I remember was the ongoing rumor that Condi is a lesbian which, for all I know, may or may not be true, but it certainly never got its own documentary). What I would say, though, is that calling that a “vast” anything would be utterly wrong.

That would be like me complaining that the truthers constitute some vast left wing conspiracy, and that’s simply not the case. I don’t know how wideheld the beliefs might be that President Obama is (take your pick) not an American, a muslim, a foreign agent, or what have you. But I know that when I go to my VRWC weekly meetings, the folks who hold to any of those views are in the (vast) minority and are often shouted down by the rest.

That’s not saying that they don’t exist. In fact, I know a few people who believe that Obama is muslim and at least one that believes that he might not have been born in Hawaii (although he refuses to commit on the subject). But I know an awful lot of people.

Most of the most vocal opponents of Obama that I know don’t think that there is anything sinister about the president, they just disagree many of the policies and ideas of the guy. Not that they like the guy (and civility is in short supply right now), but that’s not so different from the left’s feelings about Bush II. It may fog opinions and make it harder for the president to get his ideas across, but it’s not a sign of a vast conspiracy of any sort.

But, to be fair, it was an awfully short article with very little context to the comments. Oh, and I really do wish that people hadn’t gotten sucked into the Vince Foster stuff. Not only is it wrong to make that kind of an accusation without any real evidence at all, but do we really need to be manufacturing reasons to disagree? When it comes to real, substantial issues, I think we do just fine disagreeing with each other.

Can a conspiracy be “vast?” Once it’s reached that point isn’t it just an organization?

I’m still trying to decide how to launch a Vast Dave-Wing Conspiracy.

No jokes about weight, please.

Heheh.

This strikes me as yet another example of the, “Democratic dissent is patriotic; Republican dissent is evil” meme.  ("Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.")

That said, I’m more of a Buffalo-Wing Conspiracy sort, myself.  And I don’t really care whether they’re right wings or left wings.

At least one lawsuit challenging Obama’s qualification was filed by a Democrat.

he murdered Vince Foster—a claim that’s still standard red meat among the Limbaugh/Coulter/Medved-type clowns.

Sorry, but that’s bullshit. There is a difference, first of all, between not being satisfied with the official explanations behind Foster’s death, and alleging that Clinton (or, as I more often heard it, Hillary) had Foster killed.

Second, by the time the Lewinsky scandal erupted, there were only a few wackos still muttering even about the Foster questions, let alone an imagined murder conspiracy.

hundreds of frivolous lawsuits challenging the President’s citizenship

I trust you have a complete list?

I don’t know how wideheld the beliefs might be that President Obama is (take your pick) not an American, a muslim, a foreign agent, or what have you.

A Kos-funded poll claims a majority of Southerners failed to answer “yes” when asked whether they believe Obama is a natural-born citizen. Of course, the “yes” respondents still held an overwhelming plurality, but that didn’t stop the Obamarrhoids from insisting it proves most of those racist Southerners think Obama is a deep-cover Al Qaeda operative or some crap.

A Kos-funded poll claims a majority of Southerners failed to answer “yes” when asked whether they believe Obama is a natural-born citizen. Of course, the “yes” respondents still held an overwhelming plurality, but that didn’t stop the Obamarrhoids from insisting it proves most of those racist Southerners think Obama is a deep-cover Al Qaeda operative or some crap.

That’s an interesting spin on the Kos/Research 2000 poll, but the telling number in that poll was that less than 50% of Republicans nationwide believe he is a natural-born citizen, whereas 83% of unaffiliated and 93% of Democrats do. And less than 50% of Southerners believe he is a natural-born citizen, whereas all other regions of the country are 87-93%.

The “overwhelming plurality” is not so overwhelming when you put it in the context of the rest of the nation. There’s that missing context again.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/disturbing_poll_on_beliefs_abo.php

The telling number in the poll is how much money Daily Kos paid for it. If you don’t have a complete list of your “hundreds” of lawsuits about Obama’s citizenship, maybe you can dig that one up for me.

Polls from WorldNet Daily, Public Policy Polling, and the Deseret News in Utah back them up. And the Kos/Research 2000 polls are all 100% posted online, with survey questions, methodology, and crosstabs fully available for you to tear them apart. And they had among the most accurate national polls in the 2008 election--they actually underestimated Obama’s win margin.

As for lawsuits, try Google. Alan Keyes filed lawsuits in every state where he was on the ballot, in addition to one or more federal suits. Multiple lawsuits were filed to get Obama off the ballot in all 50 states, at least three that I know of in Colorado. Orly Taitz has several federal suits of her own. At least a dozen were filed by various people and groups after the Electoral College vote but before the inauguration. Hundreds is an easy number to get to.

How does a handful of crazy people filing dozens of crackpot lawsuits each make the VRWC either vast or a conspiracy?

Ditto still seems to have missed the definition of the word “conspiracy”.  Try any dictionary.  It will have it.  There is no “conspiracy” regarding Obama, other than the usual political opposition to another party’s ideology that the Democrats have not yet succeeded in outlawing.  Not least as the earliest rumors about Obama’s parentage were traceable to Hillary Clinton surrogates.

If the number of people who believe in meme is indicative of a conspiracy, then I’m sure Ditto will fill us in on the VLWC that has 35% of Democrats thinking that George Bush was part of the 9/11 conspiracy.

I would be willing to bet 10 VWRCs that I couldn’t convince you of the existence of one VRWC no matter what evidence. My purpose for commenting initially was simply to point out that the Big Dog was not talking about President Obama’s opponents on policy grounds as the AP article may have implied, but those whose aim is to destroy him out of paranoia, hatred, or some other, more personal motivation.

Nevertheless, I’d say that the first definition in the American Heritage Dictionary fits: “An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.”

They’ve agreed together to try to unseat the President through the courts. Conspiracy sounds about right to me.

In other words, you have no evidence of any actual “conspiracy” and to hide that fact you preemptively assert we would not believe your non-existant evidence.

Sounds like we’ve found a delusion.

Mike, if you actually believed that the president wasn’t a naturally born citizen, then using the courts to try to challenge his fitness for the office wouldn’t be illegal, wrongful, or subversive. It would be a way of ensuring that the constitution was being upheld. While it might be seen as subverting President Obama, from that view it would be better seen as upholding the constitution and the laws of this country.

I’ve never liked the VRWC talk because the accusation was leveled at people who were disagreeing over policy and basic principles. It doesn’t take a conspiracy to disagree.

That isn’t to say that I think that everyone who is attacking Obama’s policies is doing so for purely ideological reasons. There are certain to be people who are disagreeing loudly because they just don’t like the guy for whatever reason. But it continues to be funny to me to hear complaints about that coming from the left and from the Clinton camp in particular.

The Clintons used a brilliant attack machine against their enemies on both sides of the political fence. The complaints about Hillary reviving those tactics in the primaries was a great reminder to me of what the Clinton presidency really felt like. I had almost missed it.

And when talking about personal animus against politicians, the only person more vocally and viciously hated in politics in the United States than President Bush is, perhaps, Sarah Palin. Can you honestly tell me that every lawsuit and every complaint against those two amounted to principled opposition? Or that those folks who were working against the Bush actually constituted a conspiracy?

I could be wrong, but I don’t think that’s how you’d describe it.

As I said before, I don’t see a conspiracy, I just see a lot of disagreement over some very big potential changes to our country, and those changes are being pushed by a president who is going to be a natural target for the anger, cynicism, and skepticism that those kinds of changes will naturally arouse in citizens who already feel a little worried about the place of government in their lives.

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