Yes it is very wrong.

But to add to it the wrongness, look at the lack rules in which the government can say someone is a terrorist. It could be applied to just about anyone that the government doesn't like. Scary if you ask me.

Zomby,

Thanks for an important post. There's nothing worse than letting a bigger right silence any talk of smaller wrongs. As Victor David Hanson pointed out in "Carnage and Culture," democracies win wars because we tolerate dissent which helps us correct mistakes. Countries unwilling to analyze their own behaviors lose battles, wars, and their souls.

Bah. They are not US Citizens and are not subject to the laws that we are. They don't deserve a trial. Er, let me be more specific. They don't deserve a 'trial by jury.' A right which we have. They got their trial. They were judged and sentenced in the field by our military leaders, which is all they should get and all they deserve.... REST OF RESPONSE POSTED HERE.

Zomby: "I have no doubt that these are Bad People who have done Bad Things and harbor nothing but Ill Intent toward the people of the West."

I have doubts. In, fact, some 'terrorists' have been released after many month in Guantanamo and sent back to Afganistan with little fanfare. It turns out that there was no evidence that they were involved in any terrorist activities. I suspect there are a number of the people still there are not terrorists. No one knows for sure, including our military.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm also sure some of these are terrorists, and should be sent in front of a firing squad. But under current rules, anyone can be held indefinately without trial, including Hector Vex. Our Government is supposed to have a series of checks and balances to guard against that, but our current system is designed to circumvent the Constitution. That can't be a good thing.

You know what, if I was a terrorist and I was being held by a forgein country - one that I had swore to destory - I wouldn't expect a trial. I'd expect to be shot in the back of the head and thrown in a ditch. But instead I'm given a right which shouldn't even be afforded to me. Am I glad for that? No, if I'm the terrorist - I'd rather the shot in the back of the head so I can go get those 70 virgins.

When you're talking about checks and balances and circumventing the constitution, you have to remember we're dealing with people WHO ARE NOT AMERICAN CITIZENS. So all our laws and policies and constitutional rights are out the fucking window.

Hector.

"Circumventing the Constitution"? Do you think that was what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they wrote the Constitution? An American nation that guards its own liberties and disregards everyone else's? What about: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." Not all American men. All men. Read some of the Founding Fathers papers from those times. They wanted to be a beacon of human freedom and dignity for the world not an exclusive club. That is why we extend rights to others--not because we have to, but because it is integral to the most basic tenets of our country. You can frame it however you like, but don't pretend what does and does not fall under the Geneva Conventions determines what is right or wrong. I, for one, would like to see us live up to our ideals rather than shun them.

What if they're a US citizen or what if they're innocent of any wrong doing? Is that still O.K Hector?

Here here Shawn

Like the right to bear arms? Old school laws that were created in a different time with different intentions. You don't know that the founding fathers meant all men when they said that. Maybe, they were so elitist that they were reffering to themselves. It's a different time, different rules apply. You think the founding fathers would have seen this shit coming? Things change. Times change and the way we handle situations must change as well.

Hector.

Hector, a number of things. First, you're making the assumption that they are all guilty as charged. As Walter pointed out, there have already been prisoners released who most certainly weren't--yet we're supposed to simply assume that the rest of the detainees are, to a man, guilty?

Second, hell yes I make the assumption that the founding fathers were talking about something more universal than just themselves. And if they weren't, they should have been--which is why our laws have been ammended over the years to give women voting rights, for instance. If they were so small-minded as to mean "God bless us--and no one else" then we have already signalled our unwillingness to follow in their footsteps.

The rights that we extend to Americans is based on a moral belief of what rights should be afforded to all the people of the world. The way that we use our influence in the world is a testament to that (and, not coincidentally, the basis for portions of the left's view that America is an arrogant bully). I second Shawn enthusiastically in his hope that we manage to live up to our ideals.

Third, I'm all down with gun rights, so we aren't likely to find a place of agreement on that front.

Lastly, if the people are as guilty as you believe them to be, then what would be the harm of having trials? If it's expense or time, well you're talking about a willingness to assume the responsibility for the cost of caring for these people for the rest of their lives--and that leaves them with a certain amount of free time, doesn't it?

I'm all for keeping those found guilty behind bars forever. But let's find them guilty or not-guilty following a fair and reasonable trial.

This country was founded on certain rights and assumptions that Shawn spoke about above, but the inportant thing to remember is the circumvention of the Constitution. That piece of paper holds the key to the American psyche and the american way of life. Circumvention around the basis of our lives and freedom is the first step in breaking down the staggering success that is the United States. The Romans became an empire after centuries of being a republic. Recently the US made its first steps in into imperialism. Bad guys, evil-doers, terrorists, are all names given to those that we dont like or are different than we are. There is no doubt that people in this world want nothing more than to destroy us and our way of life, but holding a person prisoner, indefinately, across the world, without the benefit of a trial, beit jury or tribunal, in a chain-link box is simply not American. It stands against the very fabric of our society and must change

Chris

Bah. It's much easier to throw them all in jail then to try and weed out the innocent ones. What do you think the ratio is? Probably 1 innocent per 100 guilty? Less? I dunno. But worth it. They are there for a reason. Wrong place, wrong time - oh well.

The Founding fathers, well, that's a subject that has been getting a lot of research and press lately. That's where I base my crazy statements. They weren't worldy and acting in the best interests of the world and the future. At least that's my take. I believe that they thought there would be no other than the United States, that when they defeated the British they became numero uno in the world. Which they did. I think our laws were created selfishly, and at the same time as a direct jab at the British. "All men are created equal" may have been just a smart-ass remark to let the British know that we weren't beneath them.

Of course, (I'm laughing my ass off right now at what I am writing) I could just be stoking the fire right now.

Bottom line is, it's a new age man, a new era. Times are a changing and we need to adapt to them. What was thought 200 years ago, may not apply today.

We can't afford to give everybody in the world the same freedoms anymore. We have to take a harsher stance. And if that means no trials for suspected terrorists, then so be it. That's the reality of the situation.

See, really, I think we should just pop a cap in their asses and not even waste jail space. But that's just me... and a few other loose cannons.

Get 'er done!

Hector.

(If anyone is actually getting pissed off at what I am saying, that makes me laugh even more. I beleive what I say, but I say it with a sardonic and sarcastic tone that I hope all you get.)

And will someone please legalize weed?

Um, if the Founding Fathers weren't "worldly" in their views, why did they take such a keen interest in the French Revolution?

someone please pass him a joint he needs to chill out.

I didn't know that we took such a 'keen' interest in the French Revolution. From what I remember of history, they came to us when they were drafting a new constitution.

That's when France became our bitch.

And Ben, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

I simply don't believe the article. I don't believe that this administration will allow prisoners life in prison without some sort of trial with guilt established. I simply don't believe it. Prove it to me other than a article.

Wrong place, wrong time - oh well.

Were I a bitter and petty man, I'd wish that you someday find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time, a true victim of circumstance. And I'd wish that while you languished in prison while innocent, weeping for yourself and your fate, that some moral Neandertal would stand outside the bars of your cell and say "Heh, wrong place, wrong time - oh well."

I realize you're trying to push buttons, which is fine; however, if - as you say - you really believe what you are saying, you're hardly worth the electrons I just wasted trying to enlighten you.

I should have summed it up as "You're a bonehead."

But ad hom is so beneath me.

Have a great night! :)

Either you believe "All men are created equal" or you don't. We're either "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights" or not.

All men are not created equal. That's the kind of belief that comes from people who want the rich to give their money to the poor.

And I won't ever be in a wrong place - wrong time scenario - I'm white.

But if I was, I wouldn't bitch about it. Because really, is there such thing as wrong place wrong time when it comes to stuff like this? I mean, they knew a war was going on, they knew that their friends and neighbors were getting arrested, why hang around? It's like a black guy getting arrested during a riot and he says he was just walking to the store. Well, you saw the homies setting fire to cars - why even leave the house?

Andy, you can't enlighten me. I've already accepted the reality of things I cannot change.

Paragraph by paragraph:

We should endeavor to ensure that all people are equal under the eyes of the law. That there are inequities in the starting point, I agree, but we should still do our best to level the playing field whenever an individual has to deal with the state. Our rules and laws shouldn't be based on anything other than universal ideals until a person purposefully steps outside of those laws and makes themselves into criminals.

Your skin color is not a talisman against misfortune. That seems a little bit naive, in fact; I'm astonished that you seem to think that your skin color has magic powers to keep you from harm. Reginald Denny was certainly at the wrong place in the wrong time and suffered the consequences of being the only white face around--I was enraged that some people seemed to think that it was somehow his fault for happening along at the wrong time, in the wrong place. I won't be less enraged when the same thing happens to someone with a different skin tone.

So, what you're saying is that those darned Arab-looking folks should have left that country that we were invading if they didn't want to be mistaken for terrorists? Or am I missing something?

The reality is that there are probably people being held in Guantanamo that didn't actually do anything wrong. I may not be able to change that directly, but I can speak out against any injustice that I see and I can propose a better path: take them to trial. There is nothing wrong with insisting that our elected officials behave properly--regardless of the color of someone's skin or in which country the prisoner was taken into custody.

How the fuck did this become a racial thing?

It wasn't a racial thing so to say, but think about it. The whole wrong place-wrong time thing only applied because of who they are. Had a white guy been standing in the middle of a bunch of terrorists, the white guy probably wouldn't suffer the same fate as the innocent arab fellow walking to the store. Didn't you read my riot analogy?

Reginald Denny was truly wrong place wrong time. That's fact. It's too bad, and it's not his fault, but that's the way it happened. But it would be different if he was a black guy and knew what was going on. That's my comparison. You know there's a riot outside, you know all the rioters look like you, don't go outside. Don't protest, don't get involved. But that's what they do in the Arab countries and that's how they ended up at Guantanamo. Whether they participated in a violent act or not, they were there amoung those who had. It's too bad, but the odds are pretty good that we nabbed more guilty ones than innocent ones. The truly innocent have been let go and will be let go. The borderline ones, ones who may not have done anything persay but still spit in the face of their 'captors' will suffer the same fate as the guilty ones. Too bad.

I'm not saying don't speak out against these kind of things, but I'm one to just look at this situation and say, 'oh well, shoulda stayed inside.'

Hector Hector Hector.

(In a Dennis the Menace type response, and hiding the slingshot behind my back,) "What?"

Feel free to ignore me.

Actually, I was going to respond to you earlier, but forgot. You have a good point, our whole argument here could be moot because the article was published in the UK, a country which tends to report a bit more theory and rumor about the US rather than facts. Very liberal folks over there.

G'night folks!

Hector.

An interesting debate. One point to make:

1) "How the fuck did this become a racial thing?" (Zombyboy)

Everything is racialized so no surprise that the debate reflects real life in this sense. Hector Vex and Zombyboy (despite your willingness to grant prisoners the right of trial) have proved that a racist response is by and large what the United States has taken.

Zombyboy: "I have no doubt that these are Bad People who have done Bad Things and harbor nothing but Ill Intent toward the people of the West."

How do you know this for sure? Is there such thing as Bad People really? Why should "Bad People" be allowed trial at all then, why not just kill bad people like animals? Your qualifier, "bad" is racist.

Hector Vex:
"It's like a black guy getting arrested during a riot and he says he was just walking to the store. Well, you saw the homies setting fire to cars - why even leave the house?"

Well said, you must be a KKK member.

My qualifier "bad" is not racist. And fuck you--I neither mentioned nor alluded to race in my comment at all. Do not come here and accuse me of being a racist--you're guaranteeing to piss me off.

Why am I sure they are all guilty? I am not--which is why I want them to have trials. Why did I capitalize all of those things? Because I am adopting a mildly mocking tone of all of those things that people assume when it comes to the detainees. That said, yes, there are truly bad people. Jeffrey Dahmer was a bad person. Hitler was a bad person. Stalin was a bad person. Che was a bad person. Osama bin Laden is a bad person. These are all Bad People.

Clear things up for you?

No? Allow me to clarify further.

In saying Bad People, I was also not saying (as I very well didn't say) members of a Bad Race. The context should be fairly obvious to anyone who isn't searching for race in every conversation.

So, one last time, never, ever call me a racist in my own home. My willingness to grant the prisoners the right of trial is fully based on the belief that they deserve the right to a trial to either prove their guilt or innocence and until that trial has occurred, their guilt or innocence is not to be presumed.

"...searching for race in every conversation..."

Hmm.

Is George Bush (Sr. & Jr.) a Bad person? Is Colin Powell a Bad Person? Is Samuel Huntington a Bad Person? Is Ronald Regan a Bad Person?

No. They aren't. Thanks for asking.