The last thing I need is to see that Michael Moore and I agree about something.

Ick.

I feel dirty. MM and me agreeing to something:

"Dammit, of COURSE he's a lousy candidate -- he's a Democrat, for heavens sake!"

Oh well, I had a good run going. . . "click"
Damnit, chamber is empty.

Yeah, he's right: The Dems do turn on their candidates quickly. Never seen anything like it. They're worse than Phillies fans.

Where's Nathan, for goshsakes? He might even be able to explain the left side of this better than I.

Bill: No one is "turning on their candidate". Most of us who are longtime (or war opposing) liberals never cared much for Kerry. Frankly, next to Lieberman, he was my last pick to get the Democratic nod. It's hard to get amped up to support him when he doesn't represent your goals and dreams for your country, when he does not embody the enthusiasm or vision of a candidate like Dean. As far as I am concerned, Kerry is no true "liberal", just a very slightly left-leaning old school dem.

This has nothing to do with being a fair-weather supporter; it's that many of us only support Kerry based on the theory that his policies would be better than the current administration's.

When canvassing for a friend's campaign, my boyfriend and I peeled out the Kerry lit, discarded it in the car, and went on our merry way. We'll work our tails off for someone we believe is everything we could ask for in a candidate. Kerry's only half way there. I'm not gonna sing his praises from the rooftops, ya know?

Hey, don't implicate me in this. I don't like even thinking about Michael Moore!

Admit it, nathan, you dirty dirty boy. ;)

A shame about Bruce not running, too. Also a shame he claims he was "born to run."

So Z, are you gonna withdraw your posts from a while back that suggested Moore and the Democrats were birds of feather, and shared similiar policy interests?

Let's see, given that Moore was pretty enthusiastic about both Clark and Dean (Democrats, you know). Moore is, despite his angry words, still shilling for Kerry. Go back and read those posts; I still stand by everything I said in them.

Moore and the Democrats do share similar policy interests: defeating Bush, withdrawing our troops, and expanding entitlement programs. Further, the Democrats continue to treat Moore as if he were a serious political commentator worthy of a place at the big kids' table.

Here are some of those posts.
http://www.resurrectionsong.com/archives/002925.htmlhttp://www.resurrectionsong.com/archives/002907.html

Yep, somehow I think I'm still on solid ground.

'Moore is, despite his angry words, still shilling for Kerry.'

And i remember saying WHY this was so. Something along the lines of....

'The enemy of my enemy is my friend.'

I'll stick to this, and i think Moore's recent comments support it. Moore is irrational in that he supports Kerry because he isnt Bush. A lot of people think like this.

'Let's see, given that Moore was pretty enthusiastic about both Clark and Dean'

He's pretty enthusiastic about Nader and Badnarik too.

'Moore and the Democrats do share similar policy interests: defeating Bush, withdrawing our troops, and expanding entitlement programs. '

Dont you think this is a pretty crude comparisson? Moore is way more radical than any Democrat. Some Republican's back the things you indicate.

Who the hell cares if Moore likes Kerry, they're both of couple of self-promoting, arrogant, hollow suits.

The important point to make here is that Moore, while never a very psychologically healthy man, is coming totally unhinged just like the rest of his party. Yes, Filthy, he's a Kerry supporter for whatever reason. Just accept it and quit trying to split hairs for crying out loud. Your comments sometimes remind of the contrarian I sit next to at work. She's got a damn comment and a "but" for every damn thing anyone says. Oh, and she’s a big lib too. Some things just are no matter how nuanced a look one takes and regardless of what some "expert" says. Do you have any idea how obnoxious this is? There’s a difference between debating and being argumentative. There is a time for conceding and a time for acknowledging that someone has made a point. Instead of debating the merits of this post you simply try to use the author’s words to make him look stupid or inconsistent. Do you keep a running index of his posts arranged by topic?

Moore is a liberal. Kerry is a raaaaaging liberal. They are both Democrats. Moore might night like Kerry as a candidate, but it’s not likely that either one of them would argue much with the other’s politics. Does this mean Moore likes Kerry? No, but that means nothing. I know plenty of fellow Republicans who I agree with on many issues, but I'd like to beat the shit out of them nonetheless.

If Kerry is such a "raaaaaging liberal", how then did he not appeal to Dean and Mosely-Braun backers?

If he's NOT a "raaaaaging liberal", how did he get the highest liberal rating of all Senators by at least two conservative watchdog groups?

Nathan-
I don't know they got that, either, it's never made sense to me. Convenient though, ain't it? ;)

"If Kerry is such a "raaaaaging liberal", how then did he not appeal to Dean and Mosely-Braun backers?"

Hmm, maybe because even some socialists have integrity and they saw through the empty sheel of a man that Kerry is.

Um, it was determined on the basis of a 20-year career, long before he won the nomination.

However, I think the underlying truth here is that regardless of his actual ideologies (and to date, I don't think anyone yet has managed to pin him down on any single issue), he's really just an unlikeable guy. Sure, people who know him outside of his official capacity like him (like his wife and kids), but I haven't seen anyone outside of Edwards (and even that was after he was asked to be the running mate) say very much good about him.
Thus, his nomination is really a comment on Democrats as a group, their ability to fool themselves about "electability", their willingness to compromise their integrity chasing after the "electability" will-o'-the-wisp, and their lack of commitment to their chosen candidate when he falters.
Not all Democrats, of course, but enough of them that this campaign provides a fascinating model of Democrat psyche.

Hey, I'm not going to argue that he's hollow, shallow, whatever. But he just isn't a...what was that again? I can't remember how many "A"s. Raaaaging liberal. I don't hear him advocating gay marriage; he has not been verbally supportive of a woman's right to choose. This is why most liberals (myself included) don't really think he's our slice of perfect cake.

And Nathan, for you:

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh072904.shtml

I'm going to carefully stake out some middle ground. I think Kerry is pretty freakin' liberal, but compared to Karen Mosely-Braun or Nancy Pelosi?

No way Kerry out-lefties them, no freakin' way.

Well, okay, the only liberal who actually "raaaaaaged" was Howard "Yearrrrrgh!" Dean, but that's bandying semantics, isn't it?

For the record: I never claimed that Kerry out lefties the others mentioned. However, that does not negate Kerry's infinite leftiness.

Jo, that link you provided makes some exceedingly good points. I would further add that some of the issues upon you which justifiably argue Kerry isn't all that liberal are things that don't necessarily come up in votes before Congress. So I will be more careful to say that Kerry had, at one point in his career, the most liberal voting record of any Senator.

Which then begs the question: why is the "liberal" label something to be feared? I mean, if "liberal" stands for the sweetness and light they purport to be, why would a majority of Americans not vote for them? Why do liberal Democrats invariably attempt conceal the extent of their liberalness?

...but that's probably a discussion for another time in another forum.

I think he's just as left as your average career democrat is. But "average career democrat" isn't what a lot of voters wanted this time around.

And Dean did have "rage", but I prefer to call it passion. It was respectable.

Z When I saw the white whale in concert he was pulling for Kucinich. But he would not endorse him because then he thought he would not have to do what he said.
I also liked hearing "do it for me" in his letter. Somebody should write about his narcissistic qualities

Matt

Man, I go out of town and get distracted for a few days, I miss out on this while conversation?/

Jo- I know that Democrats are exactly thrilled with Kerry. Sometimes, ya have to wear a shawl instead of a fur and hope know one takes too much notice.

Good grief- see what lack of sleep will do to a gal? Just make your own editorial notes on that one.....