Hamas have not partaken in half as much killing as the illegal Zionist nation. Hamas, despite shady tactics has a VALID cause of fighting oppression and occupation that just will not go away. I condemn suicide bombings like this, but how can you back the rogue state of Israel? They are happy to blow journalist's heads off, and send out kids barely out of school to take out their anger on everyday Palestinians.

'Hamas doesn't care for fairness or good.'

Despite the fact it rebuilds infrastructure and housing destroyed in Israeli raids, and cares for victims. This is a part you choose not to acknowledge.

'Hamas wants to finish the job. Hamas wants the death of every Jew in the Middle East.'

Incorrect. They want their own nation back.

'These are very much the same murderous people who would kill innocent civilians in Iraq.'

Thats so ironic its almost untrue. If you disregard what you said just before it, it could be applied to the 'murderous' coalition....responsible for over 10,000 civilian deaths AT LEAST. Civilians die in war, and as a backer of the invasion of the Iraq im stunned you dont realise this.

'Just like there will always be fascists and communists'

What? How can you compare 2 entirely different political ideologies to....'One who utilizes the systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve political objectives'

www.aeroflight.co.uk/definitions.htm

Hamas does not want peace in the face of violence. Israel does not want peace either.

FilthyCommie: I ask this question in all seriousness. Do you actually believe the things that you post here, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?

I answer in all seriousness.

'Do you actually believe the things that you post here'

Yes.

'or are you just playing Devil's Advocate?'

No.

Now can i ask YOU in all seriousness...do you really support Israel?

FC: I don't think he was comparing/connecting ideologies, but rather making the point that we should continue with aggressive policies to make it harder for militant Islamic terrorists to thrive in the world, just as we did with the Communists. Hamas is one group you're comfortable defending, so aside from Isreal, where else would you say that Islamic terrorists are justified in their actions?

FC: Yes, I do support Israel. Very strongly.

In case you are curious, the reason that I asked my question is that your opinions seem to generally be diametrically opposed to the ones normally expressed on this Web site. I'm not talking about slight disagreemennts here, you tend to be 180-degrees away. I don't mind the different opinion at all. In fact, we actively encourage dissent around here. You are generally very polite in your extreme opposition and that, in my experience, makes you the exception and not the rule (and this applies to people of all political viewpoints). People with viewpoints that are so different often troll, not discuss.

'Hamas is one group you're comfortable defending, so aside from Isreal, where else would you say that Islamic terrorists are justified in their actions?'

Let me clear this up. What im comfortable defending is the struggle for an independent Palestine, free from Israeli occupation and unrestricted bombing. What i dont feel is justified is Islamic fundamentalism, or terrorism. I dont seen Palestine as an Islamic issue, i see it as a resistance issue. I dont feel Al Sadr's struggle is justified, or the the continuing terrorism in Chechnya.

'In case you are curious, the reason that I asked my question is that your opinions seem to generally be diametrically opposed to the ones normally expressed on this Web site.'

I do sometimes agree with stuff said here. I post on 'left' and 'right' blogs. The way i see it, i dont think im rude or derogatory. But I have no problems with being banned or whatever, because i know some people dont like to debate on their blogs, which is fair enough.

'People with viewpoints that are so different often troll, not discuss.'

I prefer something more productive. I think debating makes you use your mind a lot more than merely echoing people who entirely agree with you, or just getting abusive to someone who disagrees with you.

FC, I'm having a hard time with this. Since you can't even make the connection that I make between our wars against fascism, communism, and terrorism without having someone draw out a map, I'm not sure what there is for me to say to you. Obviously there are so few points of agreement that nothing I say can sway your view, and I'm sure you realize that you don't offer up anything I haven't heard before (or, at least, you have yet to do so).

But, for the record, yes, I absolutely support Israel. And, for the record, there is a huge difference between targeting civilians (like Hamas does without fail) and seeing civilians die as a result of our targeting government and military installations.

Yes, civilians die in every war, and, yes, I find that horrific. I find it far worse when the only people being targeted, though, are the civilians.

And, no, I won't acknowledge the supposed good done by Hamas in the same way that I won't acknowledge the supposed good done for communities by the KKK in the south. The bad things so completely outweigh the good that there simply is no basis for praising the good.

As for Israel not wanting peace, I would answer that there are political groups within Israel that don't want peace--at least not at the cost of giving back the settlements, for instance. But I do believe that Israel as a larger entity does want peace.

Hamas, the organization that perpetrated these bombings does not want peace. I stand by those words.

Do Palestinians, as a whole, want peace? I have less grounding to say yes or no, so I would simply say that I hope and pray that they do.

And to talk about those kids barely out of school--what about the school age kids that Hamas tries to send to kill and to commit suicide in the act? Just skip right past that. Further, to say that those soldiers are taking their anger out on everyday Palestinians is simply overstating your case. Those soldiers carry on their daily lives like soldiers everywhere--hoping that they don't get shot at and wondering when they can catch some sleep. These aren't a bunch of crazy-eyed lunatics roaming the streets and looking for Palestinians to beat.

Israel is the rogue state? The one state in the Middle East that allows its citizens a fair vote? The state that was attacked as soon as it was created and has been under constant attack since that time?

And you may be happy supporting Hamas and the Palestinians at the expense of Israel, but I'm not. The only solution is two states with both states agreeing to exist side by side in peace--Hamas can't have their "nation back"--not at the expense of the existence of Israel. Israel isn't going away, and I'll support the state--if not in every decision, but in the larger sense and way that I support my own country--until the day I die.

Hamas doesn't want compromise or reason--I stick by those words, too. Hamas wants Israel gone and every Jew in the region gone--they don't want an Israel to exist. Stand up for that group if you want, but I find them reprehensible.

'FC, I'm having a hard time with this. Since you can't even make the connection that I make between our wars against fascism, communism, and terrorism'

What? Thats because there is no connection. Fascism and Communism are both ideologies. Terrorism is merely war using terror. A lot of things can be classed as terrorism. The so called 'war on terror' should not be a war against nations, it should be much more specific than this. Its being fought in totally the wrong way. Even Bush now says he doesnt think the 'war on terror' can be won, despite it being a big part of his policy.

'And, for the record, there is a huge difference between targeting civilians (like Hamas does without fail) '

This is the only way Hamas can fight.

'and seeing civilians die as a result of our targeting government and military installations.'

This isnt true at all. Israel is increasingly occupying Palestinian lands in the Gaza strip and the West bank....bulldozing towns isnt infrequent. How can you say this? Israeli attacks are so overkill. Look at the death of Yassin. That took out several civilians, as well as injuring more. Its a fact Israeli soldiers beat up young Palestinian men on a regular basis, often locking people up without evidence. All of this not even mentioning the harmless kids killed due to Israeli incompetency. Look at that kid killed who was doing nothing but sitting by an upstairs window.

'Hamas, the organization that perpetrated these bombings does not want peace'

Israel does not want peace either, and I stand by this. Hamas wants a Palestinian state, and it wont achieve this peacefully.

'I would answer that there are political groups within Israel that don't want peace'

Just like there are political groups with Palestine, and indeed people in Hamas that want peace.

'at least not at the cost of giving back the settlements, for instance. '

Yet Israel has been TAKING settlements off the Palestinians since its creation.

'Just skip right past that. Further, to say that those soldiers are taking their anger out on everyday Palestinians is simply overstating your case.'

Wrong....i could dig up numerous cases of Israeli atrocities. Ive seen documentaries from ex Israeli conscripts ashamed at what they have done. Not to mention books from soldiers about their actions.

'These aren't a bunch of crazy-eyed lunatics roaming the streets and looking for Palestinians to beat.'

Id like to disagree. But in some places they really are.

Check out this piece about some serving soldiers in Israel...who are surprise surprise trying to be silenced by the state.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1245950,00.html

Heres another from a reporter.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0125El-Khatib0125.html

'Israel is the rogue state? '

Yes. Not only does it openly ignore UN resolutions, it is free (under US permission) to develop an extensive nuclear program, which it has shown willingness to use offensively. Israel is the biggest threat to peace in the middle east, if not the world.

'The state that was attacked as soon as it was created and has been under constant attack since that time?'

Come now, we're stretching the truth a little here arnt we? The 6 day war was nearly 40 years ago. Constant attack? Hmm

'The only solution is two states with both states agreeing to exist side by side in peace--Hamas can't have their "nation back"--not at the expense of the existence of Israel. '

Israel had THEIR nation, at the expense of the existence of Palestine. Nobody is saying Israel must be destroyed to create a Palestinian state.

'Israel isn't going away, and I'll support the state--if not in every decision, but in the larger sense and way that I support my own country--until the day I die.'

Despite huge US economic support for Israel (Ironically, i find it similiar to Soviet aid to Cuba during the cold war) even Bush says the Israeli's are 'heavy handed.' Which is really saying a lot...

'Hamas wants Israel gone and every Jew in the region gone--they don't want an Israel to exist.'

This is ungrounded. This is not the aims of Hamas, but fabricated claims from Zionists. As a leader in Hamas said...''Our aim is more modest. We want to be free.''

See, as I said, we obviously have no area where our beliefs converge enough that we can even have this conversation.

1- Hamas performs this bombing on the day that Sharon is putting forth a plan to withdraw from Gaza? And you can say that there aims are just to be free?

2- Our level of aid to Israel has never mounted to as much (in pure dollar amounts) as the Soviets pumped into Cuba during the Cold War (not that I would have minded terribly if it did). The reason, of course, is that Israel is a productive nation that rewards commerce. That's a conversation for another post, though, isn't it?

3- Yes, people (including Arafat) have said that the state of Israel should be destroyed and that there should be no Jews in the Middle East. Read this about "Into the sea" conflict framing to see what I'm talking about. The term that describes the conflict framing came from a speech that Arafat gave, by the way.

4- Do you seriously consider the 6 Day War to be the only conflict that Israel has faced or the constant threat of terrorist bombings to be so inconsequential as to not count as attacks?

5- Israel has adopted a defensive posture from the inception of the country. To call them the "biggest threat to peace in the Middle East" is to just parrot a line from the pro-Palestinian side. The UN mandates that Israel ignores have been (unlike the UN mandates that Iraq ignored) non-binding. Not all UN mandates are created equal.

Israel has stated a willingness to use nuclear weapons to protect themselves--and yet they have yet to actually launch a nuclear attack. So I'm not sure you can really say that they have "shown" a willingness to use them in the same sense that we can say Saddam Hussein "showed" a willingness to use chemical and biological weapons against civilians and enemies.

When Israel bulldozes buildings, it is because they are going after known terrorist refuges. Places that have supported, supplied, or given the terrorists a place to hide. Somehow, that doesn't bother me. As for assassinating the people who order the terrorist attacks, I've stated before and I'll state again that I have a tenuous support of the act; I don't think there is anything immoral in it, but I question its effectiveness.

And saying that this is the only way that Hamas can fight doesn't address my belief that Hamas shouldn't be fighting. Nor does it address the fact that Israel only began taking land after they had been attacked (not considering the creation of Israel itself which was an act not of Israelis but of an international body). If Israel had never fallen under attack, would they have begun expanding? I don't believe so.

And our war is against militant Islamic terrorism--which is an ideology backed by a methodology. And the scope of it is very reminiscent of the Cold War, more so than World War 2, of course. There utterly is a connection--the reality that there is a war being waged between ideologies.

Read the transcript of Bush's statement and, specifically, the questions that came before. If you do, it will be obvious that what he was saying was that this war wouldn't be won in the next four years--it's a multi-generational commitment just as the Cold War was. I still consider the line a flub--he should have realized that the line would be taken out of context and used--but an understandable one.

I'm still at work, so I'll have to visit your links later in the day. I won't respond on those counts until I've done so.

You know, FC, I had this nice civil response all typed out to you, but after re-reading all the comments, I just can't do it. So here's my offering:

The world would be a better place if we all just followed the ideology of Filthy Commie/Guerilla Radio. If we practiced communism and made everything fair and square (because it worked for all those other countries, right?) there would be no more crime. If we eliminated Israel and gave the Palestinians all the land, they would stop hating the Jewish people. If we would have left well-enough alone in Iraq and tried just talking with Sadaam, he would have listened to reason, as he has so well done in the past 30 years, and have ended his reign of terror. Hey, while we're at it- let's get Castro in on those talks. Yeah, 'cause he has also tried very hard to provide for the people of his country. And finally, let's vote for Kerry just because he isn't George Bush. There! Whew!

I won't attack you personally, as that is unacceptable, but I will through facetiousness or sarcasm target your methods here and on other blogs (each asterisk represents a conservative blog on which you have commented): * * * * * * * * * * * * * *.

The majority of comments I found were on LaShawn Barber's blog, ResurrectionSong, and on my own blog- all of which are known as "right" blogs.

I did, in my Google/Yahoo/AOL search of your handle find one liberal blog on which you commented: *. However, it did occur to me to attempt a search using your other pseudonym, GR, but alas found only record lyrics, movie links, and chat rooms. (If those GR names were/are you, I commend you on your knowledge and debating ability for being so young). So, it is perhaps possible that you are commenting equally on both "right" blogs and "left" blogs, but from what I found, ummmmm.... well you conclude.

'1- Hamas performs this bombing on the day that Sharon is putting forth a plan to withdraw from Gaza? And you can say that there aims are just to be free?'

What he proposed was to remove illegal Israeli settlements from Gaza, that shouldnt even be there in the first place. Bases will remain.

'2- Our level of aid to Israel has never mounted to as much (in pure dollar amounts) as the Soviets pumped into Cuba during the Cold War (not that I would have minded terribly if it did). '

Israel is the primary recipient of US aid. Strange, seeing as its neither third world or large in terms of population. Economists estimate that since 1973, Israel has recieved about $1.6 trillion. Far more than Cuba did from the USSR.

'The reason, of course, is that Israel is a productive nation that rewards commerce. That's a conversation for another post, though, isn't it?'

Maybe so! Because i disagree with that.

'3- Yes, people (including Arafat) have said that the state of Israel should be destroyed and that there should be no Jews in the Middle East. '

Even wishful thinkers like Arafat know this isnt going to happen. Arafat has shown he wants to be accepted by the West. Without Arafat as a general leader, im sure there would be a LOT more bloodshed in Palestine.

'5- Israel has adopted a defensive posture from the inception of the country. To call them the "biggest threat to peace in the Middle East" is to just parrot a line from the pro-Palestinian side. '

Dont make out Israel to always be on the defensive. Lets not forget the Suez crisis, the attack on the Iraqi nuclear facility in 81, and many more besides...not to mention events within Palestine. Oh and who can forget the infamous Mossad......the list goes on.

'Israel has stated a willingness to use nuclear weapons to protect themselves--and yet they have yet to actually launch a nuclear attack. '

Well, no one else has launched a nuclear attack, disregarding Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This proves little. Israel is unwilling to let any nation (Note Iran) obtain weapons akin to theirs....and they have said they will not let this happen.

'When Israel bulldozes buildings, it is because they are going after known terrorist refuges. '

So the entire town is a member of Hamas, or some such group? Lets be real here Z. Sure, no doubt Hamas members hid in the many towns bulldozed. Does this call for such an overkill reaction? I think not. These are normal people. How would you feel if somebody bulldozed your entire town, because a criminal was hiding in there? Actions like this only DRIVE angry Palestinians into organisations like Hamas.

'but I question its effectiveness.'

At least we agree here. Look what happened after Yassin died. In the long run, its only going to escalate violence. I hope with all my heart the Israeli's arnt insane enought to kill Arafat.

'Nor does it address the fact that Israel only began taking land after they had been attacked'

Israel has consistently decreased Palestinian land. Arab wars have little to do with this.

'(not considering the creation of Israel itself which was an act not of Israelis but of an international body). '

Israel and Palestine were actually supposed to co exist, according to British and French imperialist plans. Due to Zionist terrorism, and increasing US pressure...Britain was forced to pull out of Palestine before the volatile situation could be resolved.

'And the scope of it is very reminiscent of the Cold War, more so than World War 2, of course.'

Hmmm....i disagree....i think the cold war was a lot different to this 'war on terror.' The cold war was between nations, and erupted into hot wars in developing countries...where Communism and Capitalism fought for supremacy. The war on terror is far more 'surgical.' This is international terrorism being fought, not a quasi war against nations with different ideologies. The cold war was polar. The war on terror is everywhere.

Im actually quite surprised such an irrational and angry post came from a supposed mature adult.

'The world would be a better place if we all just followed the ideology of Filthy Commie/Guerilla Radio. If we practiced communism and made everything fair and square '

Im not a Communist. Im a socialist. My SN is stolen directly from what a hatred fuelled cold warrior once called me.

'If we eliminated Israel and gave the Palestinians all the land, they would stop hating the Jewish people. '

I dont call for this. I call for 2 states to exist in harmony, instead of oppression from Israel. Hatred, in this situation is definatly two way.

'Hey, while we're at it- let's get Castro in on those talks. Yeah, 'cause he has also tried very hard to provide for the people of his country.

Comparing Castro to Hussein? Thats such a cheap swipe it almost beggars belief. Despite literacy rates that match those in the US, a groundbreaking healthcare system, and great education...Cuba is just the same as Iraq.

'And finally, let's vote for Kerry just because he isn't George Bush. There! Whew! '

When did i say that?

'I won't attack you personally, as that is unacceptable,''

Gee, thanks.

'but I will through facetiousness or sarcasm target your methods here and on other blogs'

My methods? I post my opinions in a non derogatory fashion. As ive said, im fine with being banned. Why are you making such a fuss about an anonymous internet poster?

'(If those GR names were/are you, I commend you on your knowledge and debating ability for being so young)'

Im flattered that you would go through such trouble just to find out stuff about me. Im 20 years old. 'Guerrilla Radio,' one of my many SN's is a song. Not too original.

'So, it is perhaps possible that you are commenting equally on both "right" blogs and "left" blogs, but from what I found, ummmmm.... '

Great. I dont have to prove anything to you. I have around 6 different Screen names, which i alternate. I also post on several message boards....Right wing conservative boards like

www.axisofjustice.org

and

www.tommorello.net

As i said, i have nothing to prove to you whatsoever. I dont make assumptions about you, and i dont really feel the need either. I dont know what bought this on, but frankly i dont give two shits. You dont like my opinion? So what? Ban me, ignore me, whatever. Just quit crying eh?

FC- welcome to real real world where mature people can be frustrated and annoyed.

Boo Hoo. Z and Jerry didnt make a scathing attack on me for voicing my opinion. I dont at all expect to be given a pat on the back, but ive never abused you, or your beliefs.

FC-it wasn't scathing, it was questioning why you comment consistently more on conservative blogs where you know that your comments are purposefully dissenting. I have never attacked you, FC, and anytime my thoughts have come across as offensive to you, I have always made an effort to clarify, right? Look back through the comments both here and on my own blog.

Correct. ZB and Jerry didn't directly ask you your motive; they did so indirectly (well, Jerry was rather specific actually). I asked directly allowing our gracious hosts to not have to do so.

All this asks is, are you commenting just to "stir the pot" or because you want to ask questions seeking understanding?

I have numerous times told you that I appreciate the comments that you make on my own blog as long as you stay within the limits of civility and limit your swearing (my girls occasionally read my blog, you know). When I have done so, the discourse was positive; I think you may have even conceeded once or twice ;)

Much is lost through a computer; isn't 80% of communication done through means other than speaking or writing? I just ask that you think about your motive for consistently opposing any premise, opinion, or political thoughts that the guys share. Heck they like dissentors and even maintain a few lovely Democrat females over here (you know who you are:), but it's all done in a spirit of civility, politeness, humor, etc.

My final comment was directed toward your common accusation of saying that I lacked maturity for taking you to task. Mature people get angry. Mature people get frustrated. Mature people ask questions. Mature people seek understanding even if angred and frustrated.

'Correct. ZB and Jerry didn't directly ask you your motive; they did so indirectly (well, Jerry was rather specific actually). '

I explained this. I enjoy a good discussion, if of course the hosts are willing.

'All this asks is, are you commenting just to "stir the pot"'

I assure you this is not my aim. Not only is political debate to me as a student, i find it pretty rewarding when i find out new pieces of information.

'My final comment was directed toward your common accusation of saying that I lacked maturity for taking you to task. '

To be honest, i found your first post extremely irrational. I dont have to prove anything to you, or have my beliefs patronised.

'Mature people get angry. '

Why were you angry? You dont have to listen to my radical beliefs.