...that revolution has been shown to be what it really was: the failed ideology of fools.

Oh Man!!! Absolutely beautiful!

Im not going to address the whole of that, as quite simply its obvious we are never going to agree. And i really dont want to demote myself to petty name calling, and personal insults about your knowledge and beliefs.

''
If you want to paint yourself as any kind of an expert on Cuba, you might want to go play in some other sand box.''

I actually dont paint myself to be an expert, but im not ignorant on the subject either. Unlike a lot of people, ive had the opportunity to visit Cuba.

''Why should I take it into account? Did I call for a glorious return of that previous government? Did I say I wanted to replace one form of tyranny with another?''

Castro was supported by the actual PEOPLE of Cuba, which is more than can be said of Baptista and his US puppet cronies.

''Do I think that there is some gestapo or something? Yes, in fact I do. I think there are state agencies responsible for making sure that you don't see the worst of Cuba, that you don't see anything other than the people that are cleared for contact with Westerners''

What? I saw poverty in Havana, and people who were clearly unhappy. No offense, but what you are saying isnt backed up at all.

''Still, the opportunities available in the United States are far greater than the opportunities available throughout most of the world.''

Exactly, and thats why America from the outside looking in is so appealing. Unfortunatly the American dream certainly doesnt apply to everybody. Exploitation is rife, as in every capitalist state.

''Considering that much of the rest of the world has free trade with the US, and none of the rest of the world matches the US for opportunity, your argument becomes more than a little hollow.''

When did i start talking about America's position in the world?

''So, what you're saying is that since the US has made mistakes in the past and supported the wrong people, we should have a more open policy toward dictators in the future?''

Mistakes? Yeah right. The US has CONSISTENTLY backed dictators in the past due to American interests. Even when these dictators replace democracy. I noticed you conviniently ignored the Chile example, where the people chose socialism and the CIA deposed of the government anyway. All im saying is using the argument Castro should go because he is a dictator holds pretty much no grounds whatsoever.

''That's because communism is a joke. It was an untenable political structure that could never exist outside the enclosed petri dish of a theorist's mind.''

You are talking about things you know nothing about. Have you read the Communist Manifesto? What about works by Gramsci, or the Frankfurt school? To be honest, your view is typical of someone that is fed information, but hasnt seeked it themselves.

''Firstly, how can you put Castro into a list with Martin Luther King, Tom Paine, and Winston Churchill? These men brought lasting changes that touched the world.''

Well Tom Paine bought change to a small group of ex British colonies. I still respect his deeds, and his ideas. Scale is irrelevant, i disagree with your standpoint here. Its the message and actions i respect.....scale has nothing to do with it. Due to our obviously differing ideologies, we cant really begin to comprehend each other. I mean you respect Reagan whereas my opinions on the man are pretty similiar in scale to your opinions on Castro. Im not holding your ideology against you here, and i wish you wouldnt do the same to me.

p.s Its important to note i dont agree with Tom at all. As you said, his Bush/Castro argument is a pack of cards, and he deserved to be completly tooled.

"Castro was supported by the actual PEOPLE of Cuba, which is more than can be said of Baptista and his US puppet cronies."

And I got 99% of the vote in the last election, and look at me now! They loved me, the people, at least the ones that I let live, because I am the gracious President of Iraq!

"Im not holding your ideology against you here, and i wish you wouldnt do the same to me."

Our ideology has not resulted in the greatest loss of life in the history of humanity. Or repression in every single nation it's been implemented. So, yeah, I think quite a few of us are going to hold your ideology against you, because your ideology is shit.

Boo fucking hoo. You dont even know what my ideology is for starters. The greatest loss of life in humanity? Give me a break McCarthy. The forwarding of Capitalism has also resulted in loss of life. Ive tried to be civil, but its hard when the poorly educated commie haters seep out of the internet woodwork.

GR, I know that you're the only one here who cheers for dictators. DF was a little over the line with that last comment, but he's still right about the greatest loss of life in history. There is great reason to despise the people who brought the "revolution."

As for the rest of you last comments, I'll just let it all stand as is. I'm sure this uneducated rube (who has read the Manifesto and thought that it was filled with wild speculation and unfounded expectations of human nature) isn't going to change your mind, anyway.

The greatest loss of life in humanity? Give me a break McCarthy. The forwarding of Capitalism has also resulted in loss of life.

I suggest a rephrase: the greatest intentional loss of life, via murder, starvation, and oppression, in human history.

First person to blame it on atheism gets punched. Unless they're female and hot, in which case I also offer public spankings.

What, no public spankings for me?

Tease.

***Unlike a lot of people, ive had the opportunity to visit Cuba.***

This means nothing. I've had the opportunity to visit Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Canada, and England, and I don't promote any kind of expertise in any way shape or form. I've also had a visit to Cuba, but I didn't go visit the children in the fields, or interview my waiter about his life. My girlfriend (at the time) went and lived in Cuba for about 8 months, and she had the intention of moving there... she came back saying that there were too many people taken advantage of, and she couldn't contribute to it. I've been to Mexico quite a bit, especially considering that I live about 1hr from the border. I love to visit. I've been all over Mexico, but I still don't comment on things that I don't know about. I, as well was a History major, and I still don't substitute any book knowledge, or my degree, for any authority.

***What? I saw poverty in Havana, and people who were clearly unhappy. No offense, but what you are saying isnt backed up at all.***

"Establishing block by block Gestapo-style vigilante neighborhood informant networks, suspending the Constitution, free elections, all impartial judicial processes and freedom of expression, Castro has maintained a totalitarian iron grip over the island and its people for over 43years" (http://www.pearlfilms.com/%27FIDEL%272.htm)

"It maintains a pervasive system of vigilance through undercover agents, informers, the rapid response brigades, and the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR's). While the Government traditionally used the CDR's to mobilize citizens against dissenters, impose ideological conformity, and root out "counterrevolutionary" behavior, economic problems have reduced the Government's ability to reward participation in the CDR's and hence the willingness of citizens to participate in them, thereby lessening the CDR's effectiveness. Other mass organizations also inject government and Communist Party control into citizens' daily activities at home, work, and school. Members of the security forces committed serious human rights abuses." (http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1999_hrp_report/cuba.html)

There is lot's more on the many "gestapo" like structures which currently "influence" people in Cuba.

***Unfortunatly the American dream certainly doesnt apply to everybody. Exploitation is rife, as in every capitalist state.***

This is true. If you're lazy...it doesn't work too well. But, I see people living off of our welfare and food stamp program that live in better conditions and drive better cars than I do.

***You are talking about things you know nothing about. Have you read the Communist Manifesto? What about works by Gramsci, or the Frankfurt school? To be honest, your view is typical of someone that is fed information, but hasnt seeked it themselves.***

Now, that's not really fair is it, and we also know that it's a lie, when speaking of Z. He does alot of work researching and educating himself, and it's obvious. You know this. I have also studied quite a bit on Communism and since you have, you will know that true communism is an impossible utopian dream. The way it is practiced in Cuba is partial and prejudice. The high are kept high, the low are kept low, and there is no in between.

***Ive tried to be civil, but its hard when the poorly educated commie haters seep out of the internet woodwork.***

Now come on... you already said that you didn't expect a pat on the back for your comments. Reagan/Castro huh? Ok... and you're barking about the poorly educated commie haters. That's ripe. Nobody is calling you a "pinko," GR. We're just, once again, taking exception to your comments.
-Super

***First person to blame it on atheism gets punched. Unless they're female and hot, in which case I also offer public spankings.***

I don't think that it can be blamed on atheism, as atheism is just "away from god," or a belief that there is no "god." These people could beleive in some higher power, or in a force that binds us, etc. Instead, the people who tend to supress their countries and murder their people tend to have an adjusted sense of morality and ethics. They sometimes even justify their heinous acts via some form of theism. (i.e.- Hussein, Osama, Zarqawi, James Jones, David Caresh, etc.) I think the atheists are safe, this time.
-Super

''I have also studied quite a bit on Communism and since you have, you will know that true communism is an impossible utopian dream.''

Correct, which is why i am not a Communist. I do however note the validity of many Marxist ideas.

''This is true. If you're lazy...it doesn't work too well. But, I see people living off of our welfare and food stamp program that live in better conditions and drive better cars than I do.''

Thats a bit of generalisation. Are you saying all poor people in America are lazy? Often the poor have simply got no way of getting out of their situation. Saying they are ''lazy'' reminds me of Reagan.

''I've had the opportunity to visit Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Canada, and England, and I don't promote any kind of expertise in any way shape or form. I've also had a visit to Cuba, but I didn't go visit the children in the fields, or interview my waiter about his life. ''

I dont make the ridiculous claim to be an expert on Cuba. I didnt interview people either, but i stayed in a hostel and talked to people....people both pro Castro and anti Castro.

''The way it is practiced in Cuba is partial and prejudice. The high are kept high, the low are kept low, and there is no in between.''

Your anology can also be used on Reagans America, or any other system that relies on trickle down economics. I know Cuba is far from perfect, but if countries removed the brutal sanctions against them things would definatly improve for the people.

''Now come on... you already said that you didn't expect a pat on the back for your comments.''

Naturally. But if you read my posts, i try and keep it at a debating level. I didnt make any personal insults against anybody. I dont do it, and neither do i expect it really. You can say what im saying is bullshit, but why get personal?

''Reagan/Castro huh? Ok... and you're barking about the poorly educated commie haters.''

All i said was, i hate Reagan just as much as Z hates Castro....conflicting ideologies. I didnt compare the two on any other level, like say that clown does with Bush and Castro.

''GR, I know that you're the only one here who cheers for dictators.''

Dont forget terrorism.

GR,

How many countries currently have "brutal" sanctions against Cuba?

The United States actually escalated Economic sanctions against Cuba after the Soviet Union disintegrated. Many countries have said that the sanctions should end, but with President Bush falsely listing Cuba as a terrorist state, countries in the UN are increasingly pressurised to avoid trade with Cuba. Britain especially, with the special relationship and all. Frankly, the sanctions put against Cuba by the US for some 40 odd years would annihalate a powerful Western country, let alone a country like Cuba.

In my opinion, if Cuba gave into the United States...a puppet leader would be put in place and the country would be decimated by Transnational corporations, like so many other LEDCs.

"Cuba's best day is when the Cuban people have terminated Castro's evil Communist dictatorial regime and said to him, 'Hasta la vista, baby,"' U.S. representative Sichan Siv said. California's Governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger uttered the oft-quoted line in the film "Terminator 2: Judgment Day." Angry at the insult to the Cuban president, Perez shot back: "It is the people of Cuba who say 'Hasta la vista to the blockade, Hasta la vista to genocide."' "I ask you to vote in favor of Cuba's right -- which is also today everyone's right," Perez said to applause.

Hopefully things will get better.

I apologize if I go over the line. To zomby, not you, GR. I think your views are extreme enough that I quite frankly don't think you deserve a civil response. And I think zomby is far more civil to you than you deserve. But I'll be a little more civil.

That said, it's ridiculous to imply that there wasn't a loss of life due to communism unheard of in human history. Or that the loss of life due to capitalism was remotely comparable. Or that the fact that some deaths could be attributed to capitalism somehow absolves the guilt of communist governments.

Your words:
"I actually dont paint myself to be an expert, but im not ignorant on the subject either. Unlike a lot of people, ive had the opportunity to visit Cuba."
"I've spoke to everyday Cubans, have you? As a British citizen that lived in the states for 10 years, the country was awfully open to me."
"Look man. I went to Cuba to find out for MYSELF. I'm not White, or fat. I had the opportunity to go to Cuba for 3 weeks, and so I took it immediately."

Now, all of this reference of you going to Cuba is somehow going to lend creedence to your views on the country, Fidel Castro, and/or the politics of the island? I'm just saying, it doesn't. You may not be making "the ridiculous claim to be an expert on Cuba," but you are inferring some sort of knowlege about the subject which you have very little of, and have been very wrong on many of your points, including the "gestapo" like agencies of the government, and the aid that the Soviets had given to Cuba.

***Are you saying all poor people in America are lazy?***

No. But, I am saying that if you are poverty stricken and in the U.S., and have a good work ethic and some self-motivation, you can get "un-poverty" real quick. NO MATTER WHAT!! The opportunities are there and there are some good socialist gov't sponsored help organizations in the United States, of which the Welfare Program is not one. Welfare pays people not to work. If you get a job, you can't be on Welfare. I'm also saying that it makes me a bit ill, seeing people I know to be jobless (at least as far as the gov't knows), on Welfare, getting Food Stamps, on WIC (Women Infants and Children), and buying a brand spanking new 2004 F-150 Ford SuperCrew with all leather interior. The system needs to be revamped. This sight is common.
Socialism and Capitalism live together in the U.S. and the conscripts from each, keep each other in check. There is some of each that I like and all of neither.

***Your anology can also be used on Reagans America, or any other system that relies on trickle down economics.***

see above comment.

Also, if you were around SW Texas in the late 60's and early 70's during the early days of La Raza Unida, you would see what Castro's impact on America was. Under the auspices of Miguel Tijerina, and backed verbally by Fidel Castro, the LRU tipped over cars and set cars on fire in order to try and intimidate. Of course, Tijerina's alliance with Castro was his own undoing and the LRU party suffered a tremendous setback and malalignment because of him. This organization would have been a fantastic voice for the Tejanos and those in Califas that needed a voice in their local governments at that time. Under leadership from Cesar Chavez or Rudolfo Gonzalez, it would've been much more effective, but less violent.
Cuba under Fidel Castro, did not want any help from the U.S. In his own words, published on the Internet for anyone to view, Castro tells about how his country is flourishing right under the nose of America. Look it up.
-Super

As far as im concerned Dorka, i dont give a shit if you apologise to me personally or not. Was that meant to be insulting or something? Guess what - i dont want an apology off a self rightous, insulting bigot. You arnt worth my time at all....you cant debate and have to resort to derogatory remarks to back up your ''argument.'' Its worth nothing. I didnt imply there wasnt a loss of life due to Communism. Loss of life in so called Communist countries was often due to autocratic dictators, who werent Communist at all.

Loss of life "unheard of in human history". You implied there wasn't a loss of life "unheard of in human history", and that the loss of life under capitalists were comparable.

"...who weren't Communist at all." If you don't want to call them Communist or don't consider them properly Communist, fine. Call them Schmenglehoppers, I don't care. They all considered themselves Communist, and had a similar ideology. And when people refer to Communists or Communist countries, those are the people they are referring to.

See, I can be civil.

GR,

Genocide? Are you arrognat enough to imply that the embargo is the cuase of genocide? MY GOD! You are a complete bafoon if you think that. here's a link to your precious Fidel castro's death list. each and everyone of these caused bythe hand of Fidel castro and the Communist ideology you seem to to love.

http://www.netforcuba.org/cubanassassinated.htm

Scroll through it. Its long. Its also only those that died in any given January. There's 11 mosre lists for your perusal.

You are pathetic.

''Genocide? Are you arrognat enough to imply that the embargo is the cuase of genocide? MY GOD!''

''You are pathetic.''

Whoa, easy killer. I was quoting the Cuban foreign minister. Those were NOT my opinions. Thats all ive got to say really, im not stooping to this derogatory level.