Well put.

Z-boy. You are imminently more reasonable than I. I went with the rage.

It was hard not to.

And part of me still says that targetted rage is the right response.

Beautiful. I think sometimes that the most lovely things to read are those that aren't just nice and full of flowery things, but that are inundated with confidence, courage, and admonishment to integrity.

Against my better judgement, I watched the video last night. I only got about one minute into it and then began to wretch; it truly made me ill.

I have written about what I would do should any of my children be harmed...I can't imagine the pain, anger, and grief of this family.

I can't stop thinking about Nick's family. It is one thing to know your child has been murdered and quite another to watch it.

I can’t agree with your article more. Anyone who thinks that the Islamic faith is peaceful needs to get a grip. They’ve burned and dragged our own through the streets and hanged them on a bridge for display most recently. These terrorist organizations, at least in my mind are far worse than what we experienced the Nazi Germany. They do not have no borders, no morals, no decency, nor do they regard human life. At every opportunity we need to exterminate them like the surge that they are.

Did our president support depravity in are POW camps? Of course you have the likes of Toad Kennedy (and the rest of the flaming liberals) who state that our president is of the same ilk as Saddam because of the treatment of captured participants of this war. Toad and the rest of the far left extremist are taking every advantage of this hennas act and using it to further a political agenda with no regard to the safety of our nation and its troops. I believe that he owes the citizens of the United States an apology. We have blown in our handling of prisoners and there’s no excuse for that. We waged war on an enemy and engage in an effort to free peoples from an oppressor like Saddam.

Maybe we should just nuke em’ all.

Just can’t explain or express the impact of the video on me. Couldn’t help but shed a tear.

My thoughts here.

My thoughts after watching these BUTCHERS are quite simple...the entire Middle East would make a pretty lake after we nuke the hell out of it!!!! If this is what these people do in the name of religeon, what other option do we have??? We nuked Japan for considerably less.

Altough I kept telling myself I should not watch that tape, something inside me just made me. My heartbreaks for the family of Nick Berg. This is something that should not go unpunished. How could anyone justify "God" wanting them to do this.

It is absolutely heart breaking. It's devestating.

And it's the face of the people that chose years ago to wage war on us. No, I don't understand it, either.

There is no God, Yahweh, or Allah anywhere that condons such horrendous and vicious acts of savagery, as was displayed on this video of the murder of Mr. Nicholas Berg. Even animals have reasons for their acts of killing, which the butchers that murdered young Nick Berg do not have. To equate tactics of humiliation with the brutality of this vile murder is beyond any human comprehension. Ergo, this act was not accomplished by humans but by animals and they should be hunted and massacred as such.
I will pray to my own God every day that Mr. Berg's family will someday have some sort of peace and comfort. I want the country that I chose to become a citizen of (the great United States of America) to go after and round up these animals so they can be put out of their misery forever. Please pray with me for these things to come to past very soon. Our country owes it to the Berg family and all the families that lost loved ones in nine eleven and in the war.

unfortunately the Americans have made their hands dirty by the treatment wented out to the Iraqi prisoners in Al Gharib prison out side of Baghdad.

The timing of Berg's murder seems to be more of a covering the acts of US service women and men in that prison and divert the world attnetion off Al Gharib human rights abuses.

cool guy

You knpow what I read here, mostly, is Americans who just still don't get it.
The people doing those things in Iraq are the same type of people that did the same kids of things in Northern Ireland. It's not because of their Religion, feck most of them were Catholic, a religion with a very bloody past.
Things WILL NOT change until your country wakes up to the fact that it is in a world of different views to the ones you hold, that doesn't make theirs wrong.

You knpow what I read here, mostly, is Americans who just still don't get it.
The people doing those things in Iraq are the same type of people that did the same kids of things in Northern Ireland. It's not because of their Religion, feck most of them were Catholic, a religion with a very bloody past.
Things WILL NOT change until your country wakes up to the fact that it is in a world of different views to the ones you hold, that doesn't make theirs wrong.

Cool Guy--So, what you're saying is that the terrorists did this to help distract attention from the prison scandal? I'm sorry, that's just idiotic.

John--Bullshit. Their view is wrong. Flying planes into buildings is wrong. Cutting the head off of an unemployed civilian is wrong. Blowing up trains in Spain is wrong. Whether the issue is religious or not barely concerns me--the fact that these bastards long ago declared war on our society absolutely does concern me.

See, I don't care how misunderstood the other nation is; if they export terrorists, I want to see them taken down.

This BS line about other world views is amazingly foolish. And outside of the violence directed at my nation, I feel comfortable judging things in the Middle East like the continuation of slavery, intolerance for other religions, persecution of Jews, persecution of gays, stoning women for infidelity when they are raped, honor rapings, and female circumcision.

You know, just to name a few.

Don't give me that line about this being some simple misunderstanding. Terrorists--supported, sponsored, and harbored by states in the Middle East--have long been at war with us. That we finally took notice and started to take action is not a bad thing--it's long over due.

And for that matter, fuck the IRA, too.

You are lost in a labyrinth where you can only see one side of the coin. What you cannot see is that the US has gone to war on a foreign country, killing people around and forcing their leaders unto that country. There is no way you can feel that yourself unless you live in a foreign country whose neighbor country finds itself in a similar situation, or if you live in the attacked country itself.

Another thing that you cannot see from your labyrinth is that the coalition's war is slowly trnasforming into a failure a-la-Vietnam.

If you need to find justifications for your war, then do allow me to counter-attack. "What about September 11?" has at least two other scenarios available for you to chew on: 1. Ben Laden did the attacks at the request of the americans (mind me, he used to work for the US intelligence agency) and 2. some American institution did this itself
to justify war.

Last but not least, your people is supporting Jewish operations in the Middle East, which is not a good thing to do. I believe that partially justifies killing people around. Don't bump into your religion: "eye for an eye" is, after all, a true and followed principle in everyday's life.

Why don't you mind your own business? Your media is stuffing you with lies about the rest of the world and is driving you to believe whatever they want you to. The coalition sucks! The American endeavors in the Middle East also suck. All the reasons for the bother stay in two concepts: weapon testing, oil. See where it goes?

There is also a large anti-war current in Europe. Namely, Germany -- the more powerful European country -- and France declined invitations to go to war and are positively against it. Hell, there is a world-wide current against the war! Only you and your butt-kissers cry out "bleh, war on terrorism, hurray!"

So before raising your voice and threatening those Iraqi people that the coalition can do more horrendous stuff, or making any other kind of threats, be advised: you cannot fight the whole world, without getting beaten.
(For the next topic: Only Germany can)

These terrorists and extremists have declared war on the free world - it would be rude not to fulfil their wish - oblige them and do them all a favour and take them out of the gene pool once and for all

Its not about religion at all it is about fanatics and extremists manipulating others around them - they have created and accept a culture of violence and death - they honour this -make their dreams come true and send them to their maker

America needs to realise that those shit holes called Afganistan, Iraq and most of the middle east will never change they are the worlds ghettos - nuke the lot and move on - conquer or be conquered

Trouble is there are too many weak stomached liberals who want to hug trees, hold hands and lets talk about it in a pathetic hope that they can change their minds - how naive - get in the real world wake up and realise who your enemy is before its too late

I live in Belgrade,the city in the centar of Europe that was bombed in 1999 by the Nato.So i have just as much reasons to hate Americans as people of Iraq,but i dont and i hope that they will get rid of animals like those that cut the head of that poor man,or of people like Sadam,Bin Laden,Milosevic and others like them and make this world a better place.

I fear that Christians have become caught up in the world and its political nightmare. I'm preparing a Friday post to bring things back into perspective. God ordains all things, and I believe His wrath is poring down on our nation. But Christians know (or they should) that Satan is a defeated foe.

Your senses are obliterated by the lack of complete information doubled by continuously induced subjectivity.
I will kill foreign Americans if they ever bring war into my country, or war into a country that I love.
Please call your fellow citizens back to your country. I will continue to show a moderate disgust towards jews and americans as long as they keep showing their heads above the crowd.

I offer a compromise solution that the American people might want to approach: Let the Jewish people build their state inside the U.S. and leave Palestina. Let the U.S. test their weapons on themselves, or better, against the newly-formed state. Let the American people consume their own oil reserve. Let the American people consult a wider range of media services, for the sake of their own spiritual upbringing. Cross my heart: there will be no more terrorist attacks on the U.S. from then on.

I feel compelled to respond to even the fade suggestions that my comrads have made. It is not in the gene that terrorism as behavior lies. It is in the environment that most of the program is written. Genetics only promises that one is tunable enough to learn in their environment.

As far as Satan is concerned, please do note that man is not allowed by God to wage war against his brothers. Nor to help it happen.

Also note: nobody is so important such as to make me (or anyone, for that matter) crash several planes into their buildings, *without first being provoked*. And I mean, no matter how looney I am! Know what I mean? It's eye for an eye, baby, and when Americans come into Romania and I see myself left with no other way of getting their arses out of my country and stopping them from "rebuilding" my country, I will start killing people, and so will you, if you have a little bit of decency left in yourself. Otherwise, you can go stay tucked in your bunker and watch the daily light-outs and listen to the sirenes.

I suggest you watch Bowling for Columbine and the newly appeared Fahrenheit 911 by one of your fellow American Moore. It really would help you bunch of misinformed guys. And don't forget, (besides "eye for an eye") it's about who talks more.

Oh...

And I wonder... why the f*ck does the *extra-american* media say about Iraqis screaming that the coallition's occupation should end and that the coallition should start leaving the country? Is is just some denial by Iraqis of the great benefits that the force's presence is bringing, or is someone there really mad about things going on there?
Get your asses the hell out of there before the whole world turns against you. And wake up! It's THEIR f*cking country.

hi, i'm a korean.
it was very terrible. sorry, my english is bad;;

but I think that over and over to this accedent.
(wrong word -> sorry)

therefore, it's stop!

I mourn the death of Nick Berg. I weep for his family.

Those who fail to condemn this heinous crime, this bloody murder, are as guilty as the animal, the pig, who wielded the knife. I refer to pig intentionally, as it is an animal that is reviled by Muslims.

What kind of value system (for you cannot call it a religion) condones, yea, applauds, an act so vile while the perpetrators shout out while they do it "god is great"? It is a sick and warped values system, one that deals in lies, deceit, bigotry and all matters evil, hurling these very same accusations at the principal object of their irrational hate, the Jews, and their supporters.

Their logic has been suspended, deliberately, and a loathsome diatribe based on half truths and downright lies is published. The media of the world gives it currency and the conflict escalates.

May God, the true God, He who sits upon the circle of the earth, mete out judgement to these barbarians according to their deeds, visiting their sins upon their children and children's children.

Where is the wail from the "middle class" of the Islamic world? Your silence condemns you.

We shall not be moved. More than that, we shall overcome. Your barbarism merely strengthens our resolve. God bless America, her allies and all decent, right thinking people, Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Pray for the family of Nick Berg.

I'm going to leave the current comments by Romanian Visitor up. They are instructive, once you get beyond the grammar and the interesting word choice. I'm not going to attempt to answer either his racism, his posturing, or his misinformation.

He wouldn't accept my arguments as anything other than typical American self-delusion, he wouldn't be swayed by anything I had to say, and he certainly won't be any more polite and rational than he's already been.

I will say this, however, it is only the Iraqi's "f*cking country" because we have finally given it to them. If you can't see that, at the most basic level, then there is nothing else for us to talk about.

Jesus you foreign ass clowns are the ones that need to wake up. You guys talk out of your asses entirely too much. You sit and say that we need to stop stereotyping the islamic and muslim people..HELLO!!! You guys are saying that since the american military is in occupation in Iraq that all americans are "sticking their heads above the crowd" Fuck you..you dont know me. Do I feel that 9/11 was a bad thing? Hell yes all americans do. I also feel it was a sad, tragic, and brutally barbaric thing that happened to Mr Nick Berg. And yes I think it was way wrong and totally out of line for the american soldiers to humiliate Iraqi POW's. But I got news for you...90 percent of americans are honest and hard working people that struggle to get by sometimes. Does that make us stuck up? No, we're just the only country in the world with the Balls to stand up to people who prey on innocent civilians because they hate our government. BIG FUCKING DEAL....so you hate our government cry me a fuckin river. I hate my ex-girlfriend and you know what I do about that? I DONT ASSOCIATE WITH THE BITCH. So maybe all you anti american shit heads need to take a step back and think "hey since i dont like them maybe i should just shut the fuck up, mind my own damn business and ignore them". Oh and dont flatter yourself...because America would never occupy Romania and the only reason terrorists havent attacked you people is because they dont want to be the laughing stock of the terrorist world by being the only man to fly a single engine crop duster into a 2 story goat farm in the name of allah. Give me a break and shut the hell up.

A number of things come to mind when I read the sort of gung-ho excrement that is posted on a site like this. Firstly, as always when we look at the past in order to better appreciate how we allow history to repeat itself. For example, Machiavelli in The Prince (1513):

"there is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things. Because the innovator has for enemies all those who have done well under the old conditions, and lukewarm defenders in those who may do well under the new. "

In essence this erudite observation can be seen as an accurate forecast of the situation we (UK/US plus a few others intent on garnering President Bush's favour) now find ourselves in. The new order in things that has been imposed was done for the spurious reason of eliminating Weapons of Mass distruction. I think we can all pretty much take as read the fact that these reasons were no more or less than a ruse to get our democratic populations 'on side' with the invasion. They did not exist in any measure of recent history.

That aside, the majority of the Iraqi population were willing to let the 'coalition of the willing' give it a go on the basis of the fact that morally we had more of the high ground (such as it was given the WMD excuse) than did Saddam. We have now wasted that moral high ground through the debacle of the Abu Ghraib prison. Bizarrely the murder (not execution - this implies due process and a code of conduct that is patently absent in this situation) in some ways salvages some of the moral authority that we once had - or it would do if arab media spent as much time on this attrocity as they did on the mal-treatment of prisoners.

Secondly, we have the issue of the 'just war'. This is a critical philosophical concept for any (nominally) Christian country. The problem is very simply that Jesus taught that we should turn the other cheek, not kill and so forth. But we can get away with war - the 'just war' - morally if we can pin the blame on an agressor that we can then take to task as a means of protecting the lives of our own kith and kin. The 'Pre-emption doctrine' that has recently come about in the US foreign policy says that we do this before they strike rather than after; fundamentally most people would not have this as a problem, but unfortunately this erodes our 'righteous done wrong by' platform that we like to stand on. Do unto others before they do unto you denudes us of the cover of 'they started it'.

So where are we at now? Fundamentally an ongoing quagmire a la Vietnam is self evident. The escalations that have been advocated in this website and others will not help since they do not address the fundamental problems of the region. Should we be surprised to see more instances of horror visited on Mr Berg? Certainly not; given the fact that these animals have declared themselves in a state of 'Jihad' against an infidel aggressor, the religion of universal peace and understanding recommends (to quote fromt the Koran):-

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34).

We now know what we're up against and cannot actually allow ourseves to fail. One final though in this overly long post is this though; President Bush is the new Machiavellian prine in Iraq. The role of prince requires constant manipulation of others and continual calculation of future actions. As Machiavelli puts it, “he who considers it necessary to secure himself in his new principality, to win friends, to overcome either by force or fraud, to make himself beloved and feared by the people, to be followed and revered by the soldiers, to exterminate those who have power or reason to hurt him, to change the old order of things for new, to be severe and gracious, magnanimous and liberal, to destroy a disloyal soldiery and to create new, to maintain friendship with kings and princes in such a way that they must help him with zeal and offend with caution, cannot find a more lively example than the actions of [Borgia].” Yet even these favorable conditions were not enough to keep Borgia from being dethroned.

My husband and I chose to watch the video I could not watch past when they threw him to the floor, my heart goes out to the Burg family I can not imagine what they must feel, nor would I want to try. I cry as I write this as we all come together as a Whole American FAMILY, we all felt
"our" son die ........

As the Romanian visitor suggested, we should get out of his country!! We should take our money, that we give his country on a yearly basis, our grain, that we subsidize to his goverment constantly, and our technology to help them to a better way of life, and leave them alone. What a schmuck!! If it wasn't for the USA he'd probably be humping his goat in a cave and picking his nose for dinner. The only form of comunication he would have would be drawing pictographs on the walls of his cave.
Get real you idiot!!! The US has been helping Romania for years.

Well, I just happen to go to bed and this is what happens?

O.K. after erasing my first, irrational reaction, i just wanted to let "John" know that the Senate Armed Services Committee hasn't canceled it's investigation of the Iraqi prisoner abuses.

And "Romanian visitor", I assume that you would prefer that your country go back to being a state of the Soviet Republic, to Communisim, back to no freedom of choice, or even technological advances (like the one with which you are obviously using to cruise and ignorantly criticize), back to someone else making all your important life's decisions for you? You are also obviously confused about something else: American's being blindly led by our media. If you peruse some of these commentors personal blogs, you will find that we don't at all accept what our media is telling us, in fact, our media would support your view- that we should get out and stay out and enjoy our own luxuries, hoarding them. So I would say that you support the very system you criticize and unless you have set foot in this soil (and how dare you, if you have, enjoy the freedoms this country offers and then turn around and spit on the face of her people) the only information can have read or received about it has to be from media sources or our television shows, which aren't representative of our culture. It is you, then, that are being "stuffed with lies by our media and is driving you to believe whatever they want you to."

While I will conceed that our troops are the largest percentage of NATO forces, it is an alliance and not solely of the United States and moves only when the alliance agrees to move. So, if forces are there, it is the united decision of many countries. Are you pissing on the faces of their innocent dead, too?

You are right; I have never endured a bombing on my town, my state, my country. I haven't had to see the terror in my childrens' eyes as I yank them from their slumber to run them down into a bunker. I haven't had to shush them when they speak for fear of having them murdered before my eyes. I haven't experienced the disappearance of my beloved husband because he dared believe and hope for something better for his family and countrymen. I haven't held my neighbor as she wept over the mutilated bodies of her parents, a retaliatory killing. I haven't tended the wounds of my aunt having been beaten by her ignorant husband for answering the telephone. So, you are correct in that single point. And for those who have experienced this, I am deeply sorry and will continue to support my country in eliminating tyrants. Also, before you can accuse me of saying all this without having experienced the people's desire for it, let me point you to my trip to Haiti, with a group of other students, to help build a school and medical building for a very gracious and appreciative people. I saw there the devistation of poverty; the results of one man having all the power in making decisions for the people he was to be shepherding and caring for. I was daily begged to take their children to remove them from their plight and daily thanked for helping build hope for a better life.

In finality, I second Zombyboy's words, they are certainly sufficent, and quite simplistically eloquent: F*** your simpleton, illogical, prejudice, self-serving, idiotic, unmerciful, discompassionate, deplorable, obtuse, beliefs and views.

Oh, and your offer of simple condolence, Chang Young Lee, I am sure are warmly accepted by those who have suffered the loss of their beloved son, brother, cousin, grandchild, friend. This is truly international cooperation and compassion working together for a better world. Your English was perfect.

And for those of you who know better, in trying to calm myself as I wrote, I made a few grammatical/spelling errors, which I ask you to overlook.

Where is the video?????

Where is the video?????

Read the post above--there are links to sites that are carrying the video. I won't host it here for practical reasons and because I'm not sure how I feel about providing it to people who see it as some sick voyeuristic thrill.

I'm hoping you aren't one of those people.

i am so sad to hear some of the comments posted on here today. first of all we are at war whether u agree or dont agree we are at war. it is accecptible from a lot of americans when it is publicized how we are killing the iraq's for whatever reason (society) deams important at the time but when an american is killed in the same inhumane manner all of a sudden people are rightous. i am from west chester and while i didnt know nick berg personally i feel a small connection to him because west chester is a small community and even if i didnt know him plenty of people i know went to school with him. I feel for his family. I also feel that American society has to start owning up to a lot of things that are going on over there. and in closing i am not a muslim but i have plenty in my family and i want to say for the nay sayers that islam does not teach or preach violence the same as christianity or most other religions don't either but u always have those individuals who feel they can condomn their violence through religion e.g. Klu Klux Klan, and other hate groups. so please stop being hippocrits.

"Carmelkisses77" please point me to a specific instance where American military beheaded a non-combatant Iraqi citizen and videoed it and then posted it for the world to see, all the while invoking the name of God as blessing and condoning the murder?

A hypoctire is someone who is doing the very thing they accuse of others while attempting to persuade themselves innocent of such actions. Do you really see the American military as thus? Do you really see the Americans who are horrified that one of their fellow countrymen has been brutally murdered for not just the world, but for his own parents, as no better? Nick Berg himself supported this administration and the war effort. He supported the military and their purpose. He was a compassionate man who wanted to help a people be relieved from their misery of dictatorial leadership. So, you say that the very cause he supported and truly died for is unmerited? Because if you say this, then you are justifying those who killed them. Think. Think hard.

By the way, I didn't know Nick Berg personally either, I have only read about him. But I "feel like I know him", because he is representative of the American people; he is our fellow countryman. If these dogs wouldn't spare him, don't think they would you or any others who believe the same as you. To them, you are an American. Your begging and pleading for your life; your commiseration with their cause would do nothing, and your screams for mercy would be a joke for their heartless souls fueling their anti-American rhetoric. No, "Carmelkisses77" think yourself no better and I will think you no worse.

Again I say, think and think hard about what you are purporting.

*not edited

There are comments from several comrads that I will ignore. Comments suggesting that the US have rights and we should be quiet because we owe them the technology are those of hippocrits. Comments making reference to my grammar are also to be disposed.

Many of you are missing points here, and of course I did let myself drift into replies, but I will stress once again on the bottom line, which happens to be the idea that I first expressed and I then continued.

You people are at war with a foreign country. That war is long expired. Your leaders found all the weapons of mass destruction that were to be found (take note: none) and they installed their own government. It is now a decent option to allow them to rebuild their country. Wish to help them? Send them money. Need rifles and automatic weapons there to ensure that they get help? really, no. Between you and me, it's not about the reconstruction of Iraq that your leaders care about, but rather about their own profit. I will do it your way this time and "admit" that you are helping.

Before closing, I want to express my compassion for the dead young man. I would certainly not want that kind of an action to happen in my country, which is why I must stress again that you leave them alone. As I recall, there was never terrorism without a reason.

To backup my statements, I made a reference to an Oscar-winning documentary. Please watch it and memorize the occasions on which the US "did not mind their business." and also media related information.

And please, I am not an anti-semitic guy. I just think Jews attract too much attention on them, which they do not deserve. They are ordinary people to me. Well, ordinary people with extended American support. You're helping them to be hatred. (You did provide weapons to other nations, but never were so constant as with Jews)

Allow me to get out of this flame war to be. I will not continue to post here.

Mind me, there are two sides on the coin. Action implies reaction. Mind your business. You can kill, we can kill, they can kill. Let this world be a better place. Go home and be happy.

Bye.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that you owe Americans kudos for the technology that you enjoy (as in we are not the only people capable of such creative technological capacity), I meant that you wouldn't, under the former Soviet Union, have enjoyed the privilege of going where you wish on the internet without fear of interrogation or your life.

Also, I, personally, was excusing my own grammar/spelling mistakes without any implication toward your own. Anyone who made fun of it is rude, and for that I vicariously apologize.

This is an international community that must be safe for all to enjoy. We cannot establish a world without fear, but we can contribute to a world community of freedom of thought and belief and speech and religion without fear. I cannot help but think that your political culture has influenced you to think, "live and let live." It is obvious how a culture can come to that conclusion after having experienced another larger, more powerful, country decide for it. Is that the same as the United States helping another country of human beings to rid themselves of a cruel regime, that allowed them no freedoms? Should we just "live and let live"? Because it is the very country you criticize for not "minding it's own business" that propelled the changes in the former Soviet Union that allowed Romania to declare itself it's own land; it's own people; it's own thoughts.

It is our liberal media that keeps showing the few malcontents. The majority of the Iraqi people desire to live their lives in peace and with the ablitly to prosper themselves and their country. The United States isn't going in a establishing a government for them. They are; however, providing resources in aiding the infant Iraqi government to stand on its own two feet and to grow strong.

This you, of all people, should applaude... I am desperately confused that a person who has experienced such suppresion in life and is now enjoying relief from those shackles would ask that we leave others to suffer such suffocation of the human spirit.

P.S. Anytime one says "I am not racist, but", they immediately show themselves to be.

P.P.S.I still stand by Z's eloquently simplistic words. And will until your world view is changed to one of a more compassionate, understanding, and less selfish nature.

Enough said.

This was a truely tragic event.....i cant get over how they shouted 'god is great' as they killed another human being.

To me, i think the Coalition consistently drive Iraqis to commit such atrocities. Torturing prisoners and killing innocent citizens are NOT the actions of liberators....this was an invasion of a sovreign nation. The way i see it, if Bush and Blair hadnt committed to this self righteous, non of this would of happened in the first place. When American and British troops kill and torture, im sure it gives the Iraqi people the feeling that they are no better off than when they were with Saddam.

I dont think its fair to damn the entire Islamic religion because of these Extremists either....is it right to condemn Christianity, because Hitler was a christian? You are all right to condemn and show disgust at this appauling event, but condemning an entire faith out of rage is sad and ignorant.

We have not defined our enemy. Let me offer an analogy: Christianity has many denominations. One of those groups call themselves the Ku Klux Klan and considers itself Christian (!). But its members who act out their beliefs, when illegal, are prosecuted and brought to justice. Our enemies call themselves Muslims. They have the right to gather, organize, worship, and express their thoughts. But when their actions are illegal, immoral, and detrimental to the peace in the world, and most importantly, the security of our country, we should move against them and consider them enemies of the U.S. We have declared war against the terrorists--these are who the terrorists are, not Muslims in general. But when Arab countries and their leaders do not express their disgust over such tactics, they are tacitly endorsing their actions. No, we don't declare war against them but we should be wary of them and eye them with suspicion. We also promised that those who supported terrorism will be prosecuted. Let's find out who is behind Nick Berg's killing and who is supporting them. Then we will know who our enemies really are!

well said Manolo! We cannot view Islam as the enemy, because thats not the case. I saw an interesting documentary, the interview of a man shot in the face with a shotgun by a relative of someone who died in 9/11. He was from Bangladesh, a Muslim but 1000's of miles from Afghanistan. He was shot by a so called Christian. Is attitude was calm....he showed no resentment of hatred to entire faiths as people have shown in this discussion..and this is how we should all be in the wake of this.

you haven't seen all what is waiting for you,
the murder of berg nick is fully justified.

last week, 800 persons were killed in falludja because they said no to occupation, no to invasion, (just to remember, 80 % were women and children).

Did you said anything aginst this ?
No, I don't think so.

EVERY American in Irak must be killed until your army leaves Irak

"Torturing prisoners and killing innocent citizens are NOT the actions of liberators...."

Exactly. You're speaking of Sadaam and Osama and Pol and all the many other "liberators" in the name of God right?

I am so through with this....

The middle eastern people have there priorities all messed up from the beginning. They say they are Islams, but the last time I read about that religion, that it was a religion of peace. If so why is it that the most violent acts seem to always occur in this so called "Holy Land." Persia was the holy land not the middle eastern counrties of today. I know the U.S. hadn't made matters and better but maybe we should stoop as low as these al-Qaeida members and start terrorists groups all acrosss America against the terrorists of the middle east. I thinnk Mohammed would be very dissapointed in his "people" in the middle east. He prayed for peace and prosperity, but in return gets low lives(not all of you, but most seem to be)claiming to follow him. Its all a bunch of BULLSHIT!!! Be peaceful, get over whatever your problem is, and heres a thought that Jesus and Mohammed taught forgiveness.

Heres a message to any al-Qaeida(if thats how you spell it) that thinks he's a bad ass. Fuck You. You're all cowards, that would lose in any fair fight. I would like to see one of yall in the streets and just beat the living shit out of you. Matter of fact, I welcome the idea. Any of you fucks like to stand and be a man, then you'll have a big, 250 pounds of pissed off American up your ass. I wouldn't kill you though just beat the shit out of you and laugh and love everyday that you would have to live with it. If so email me at cjlilly@ualr.mail.edu. I am open to any comments that be made. Sorry to make this personal but terrorists are lowlives, like cockroaches who can't fight fair. See ya later I gotta go before I get mad.

Z, your commentary is enlightening and intelligent. I enjoyed the reading, and those of most of the posters here. I would like to add my 2 cents.
First of all, there is an argument here of the U.S. foreign policy in dealing with the Middle East, especially with that of Israel (or as so eloquently put, "the Jews"). The U.S. has not left Israel's side since Israel was given it's land back, after WWI. That should be a relief for others in the region in knowing that once the United States helps you, it will not turn it's back on you. This image has been somewhat dulled by the first Gulf War when we left the people of the Iraqi city of Basra to die at the hands of Sadaam Hussein after encouraging them to overthrow their government, but encouraged even more by our support of Japan, the Phillipines, and South Korea, and our presence even now in Iraq.
The extra-continental posters tend to gravitate to the thought that the U.S.'s citizenry is ignorant and lives in an imaginary world self-created. This is a mis-perception. The citizenry of the U.S. lives and struggles in a world created by generations of people willing to give their lives for freedom. Not just freedom for themselves, but freedom for their fellow man. The U.S. Declaration of Independence proclaims that "all men are endowed with certain inalienable rights... that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." It is that reason that we were the "world police" during the Theodore Roosevelt administration, and it is the reason that we are in this quagmire today. If any person thinks that the United States is suffering any sort of defeat in Iraq they are sorely mistaken. The emails of Nick Berg published this morning reveal that free enterprise is flourishing in Iraq and war is hardly noticeable outside of Baghdad, Najaf, and Fajullah. The establishment of free enterprise, power, education, religion, and self-governance, all at a far greater measure than ever before allowed in this country is celebration and vicotry enough. The only thing left to do is to establish a semi-peaceful environment for the new government to try and govern.
These people in the new government are people that are respected and held in high esteem by the majority of Iraqians. They are peaceful to deal with, but do not always represent the best ideas for the U.S., as evidenced by the Shiite rejection of the interim consitution. But, they will work it out amongst themselves at a later date, on their own, just as it should be.
Someone said that Hitler was a Christian, and I suppose they came to this conclusion because he was raised Catholic. Hitler was not a Christian as shown in the book, "Hitler's Secret Conversations: 1941-1944." Here is a quote from Hitler,
"Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)"

So actually Hitler was an evolutionist, and a pagan. There are plenty of other areas to spank Christians verbally, the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, mission Conquistadors in the New World (America), etc., but those are no reflection of Christianity, or even Catholicism, today. We are seeing a leftist regime of Islam taking hold of a limited number of verses on jihad and overshadowing the entire Quran with their desire for blood. This happens in many religions, and these people are called cults. The end result of the radical murderous cult is always and unequivically death. (i.e.- The Manson Family, The Branch Dividians, Jim Jones, The Ugandan Tea Cult, etc.) The eventual result for these leftist Muslims, will also be death. Either by the hands of those they serve, or by those that lead them. Nick Berg who was helping those who killed him is a wake-up call to Iraqians that there is a beast in their midst that they must expell or destroy. It's no wonder they hid behind masks like the cowards they are.
-Thanks for your time

And thank you for your comment--well worth the time to read.

I just want to comment on the sheer idiotcy of this whole thing...here we are hanging our own service men/women out to dry for being less than scrupulous to their prisioners...I do agree what they did was wrong, however what was done to Nick Berg made some nudy photos and a bag over their heads look like a day at the spa. How can we continue to place fair and nice against these animals. Amercia needs to band together against these ruthless killers and fight for our own. We have become a nation of push-overs. WHat happened to American Pride? Only a few generations back we would have shown no mercy on a people that can commmit such attrocities against another human. The liberals carry on about "rebuilding Iraq" Why, so we can later hand it over to yet another terrorist group that will ultimatly set apart to destroy us? We must pull out the big guns, and mean it this time...I say we show them that America will NOT stand for our people to be butchered. Sometimes the only way to fight fire, is with fire! Nuke'em all!

All people deserve my wrath. Only if you place your faith in me will you be saved.

[Deleted by Zombyboy for violating any rational sense humanity.]

I DIDN'T WANT TO WATCH IT MYSELF, BUT LIKE MOST PEOPLE, SOMETHING INSIDE OF ME KEPT TELLING ME TOO. NOW I'M NOT SURE IF I'M SORRY I DID OR NOT. I KNOW A PART OF ME WILL SEE THAT IN MY MIND FOR A WHILE TO COME, BUT MY THOUGHT IS THIS. IF OUR CONGRESS OR SENATE WOULD HAVE NEVER PUT THE PICTURES OF OUR MILITARY TORTURING THE IRAQI PRISONERS, I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS WOULD'VE HAPPENED. I KNOW THAT THE IRAQIANS ARE DANGEROUS AND NOT WRAPPED TOO TIGHT, BUT FROM WHAT PRESIDENT PUSH LIKES TO CLAIM, I THOUGHT FOR THE MOST PART, IRAQI'S WERE COMING AROUND. WHAT KIND OF LIE IS THAT? I NEVER AGREED WITH THIS SO-CALLED WAR FROM THE BEGINNING, AND NOW, I'M EVEN MORE AGAINST IT. IT'S TERRIBLE WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR PEOPLE OVER THERE, AND HOW MANY ARE DYING BECAUSE BUSH JR WANTS TO REDEEM BUSH SR.'S NAME.
MY HEART GOES OUT TO NICK BERG'S FAMILY. I KNOW HOW I FELT WATCHING THAT VIDEO AND I KNOW THAT COULD NEVER COMPARE TO WHAT THEY ARE FEELING. I AM SO SORRY FOR THEM AND MAY GOD HELP THEM, THE REAL, ONE AND ONLY GOD!!!!

Look, I'm pretty open about these comments, but I don't want to see this devolve into a nasty thread. That goes for both sides of the political fence.

So, let's try to keep the profanity and the acrimony to some reasonable minimum. This is the first time that I can recall ever deleting a comment that wasn't spam. Please don't make it necessary for me to do it again.

Thanks.

I don't understand why we are putting up with these people. We have the ability to end civilization in the middle east in a matter of minutes. Not saying we should do that but... maybe a nuke or two wouldnt hurt... it worked in Japan....

sorry zomby i didn't read ur last post maybe i shouldn't have said that

What people don't understand about the prison photos is that these are Prisoners of War. War is considerably different from everyday life. Let me give you an example: Prisoner A is arrested for stealing from Walmart. Prisoner B is arrested for the attempted killing of an American soldier during wartime. But does being "the bad guy" make it right for people to force you to humiliate yourself via entertainment? This is not what I'm trying to say, by all means. What I am trying to say is that these photos are to the soldiers as that moment of you sticking your tounge out at the bully after telling on him. A moment of triumph. Wouldn't you show off after you stopped a man from killing you?

I have seen the Berg tape. It's hard to explain my feelings on it. My stomach felt a little uneasy (Not near vomitting, however)I have seen death before. It wasn't the actual death of Berg that uneased me, it was the fact that he was forced to a painful and not-at-all sudden death for doing absolutly nothing. And yes, I was pissed. I have even decided to enlist in the military. What is wrong with being mad at this? Is it wrong to be a patriotic American? Even as violent as it is, War CAN be civil. Beheadings of civilians cannot be civil...these terrorsts need to be hunted. For the record: I was a patriot before 9/11 and more so after. I was considering enlisting before Berg's death. General military intrest and terrorist attacks over the past few years have brought me to enlisting. I'm saying this because I don't want anyone to think I am pissed over Berg's death but don't give a shit about every other victim of terror.

If you've read this far, thank-you.

America has over several decades become complacent,comfortable with our wealth, and decadence. We are civilized and the acts commited by islamic radicals will eventually harden us. At some point after some major attack on the US (larger than 9?11) 350,000,000 Americans will wake up. Truely a sleeping giant will be awoken. The US government will not be restrained and at that moment terrorism will die in about 1 million degrees, in 1 millisecond along will millions apon millions of innocent Muslims in possibly many nations. Make no mistake about it. The US posseses a nuclear arsonal that could end ALL civillization. I think the radicals need to know this. If they are on a death wish they sure picked the right contry to fight!

Johnny, I don't agree with you--I think that would do more harm than good since we aren't dealing with an enemy backed by a centralized government. You didn't cross the line, though.

Thanks for keeping it in mind, though.

you're right zombie but i am just outraged by all of this. We are restraining ourselves so much, when we shouldnt be. We should show them what our military can do... probably not on a nuclear scale.... but if we flexed some major muscle, i bet alot of these guys wouldn't have the balls to do stuff like this.

These thugs are insane, what peace is there with them if is only in death. They are not happy unless they are unhappy. Islamic radicals are goats.

Johnny (the first one)-- I agree that we need to be far more aggressive right now. Far more.

Johnny (the second one)-- Dangerous little insane bunch, though, aren't they?

I agree with the people who are saying that we are in the middle of world war 3. It took us a while to notice, but now we have to start taking it seriously.

This is bull shit! Bush needs to get his act togheter. Hes blowin everything up over there payin to do that...now payin to put it back together jsut to get rid of some men. BUSH COME ON! Our men our getting killed and he isnt doing anything as well as our beheaded citizen. Burgs father blamed bush and...DAMN its about time!

NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED!

NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED!

How can I GET THE VIDEO Nick Berg? Please send reply to durantwwjd@aol.com.
Thanks
Frank

Andy, there wasn't a single coherent thought in there for me to even comment on. Thank you ever so much.

As an American, and a believer in the Constitution that binds us all, it is hurtful to see how we as American adults can fuel our anger against a religion as Islam. Muslim Americans have just as much freedom in this country as Christian caucasian Americans.

Chrissie, when you so blatantly said, "nuke 'em all," keep in mind that Muslims also gave their lives in the attacks of September 11th. Muslim firefighters worked endless days to search for and save lives through the deep debris and rubble. Some of them even died while doing so. My friend, a Muslim American, and a soldier in the United States Army, is also leaving for Iraq on Saturday. How do you think he will feel when he stumbles upon a site such as this and sees all the visible hate that is so ignorantly manifested by us AMERICANS.

Americans need to be cautious of who they direct their anger toward. It is the terrorists we are after, not the Muslims. We need to open our eyes and stop blaming Muslims for the atrocity created by a small group who think they are Muslims, but they have no idea of Islam. I have studied many world religions and have therefore studied Islam, for it is one of the most prominent religions. Before you go off and blame Muslims for everything that is wrong with the world, try reading the Quran, a most powerful book. Try reading a biography of Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, and his teachings. Then may you try and paste these same blasphemous comments.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

There are no justification of God to do such an act!!!!! These people do not have any value towards others nor their own lives. I don't really know why we have to be humane to people who can't even be humane to themselves!!!! For speaking out loud....It's War!!!! KILL or be KILLED!!!

Kenny, I'm in agreement with you (mostly). I don't blame all followers of Islam, and I do believe that there is a good portion of the society that is moderate or liberal in their thinking.

That said, Muslims here and overseas need to be taking a more active, visible role in helping "police their own." I don't want to see this war escalate--I want to see it over. That could happen a lot quicker if those moderate and liberal Muslims take a part in pulling down the terrorists.

Failing that, I absolutely want to see our country do what is necessary to secure the area and to stomp out terrorism to the greatest extent possible.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

zombyboy:

Thank you for the cordial response. I do agree that Muslims in countries such as Saudi Arabia, should take action against Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups who taint the Islamic religion. I am confident that American Muslims, are both embarressed and angry for taking the blame for this small group of radicals. Many are for the freedom of Iraq and have faith in the cause. I just wish other Americans can hold the same view as you, to take a pensive approach to these critical matters and understand our true enemy; not Muslims, but terrorists. Thanks again.

I just want to say the killing of Nick Berg was not Islamic. These people doing it in the name of Allah which is shameful because thats not what we, muslims, are taught. This is just done in personal pure hatred towards US not according to Islamic teachings. These are the actions of onlt terroists and not Muslims.

I have a great idea. Let,s come up with another fuel source and do what the middle east wants us to do..........leave them alone, to starve and die of disease. By the way, without us around to keep a leash on Isreal you would all be under jewish rule. Think about that. They would nuke your ass in a heartbeat without US intervension.

I recently watched the unedited video of the killing. I consider myself someone that can handle seeing these types of things, but after watching that video I was shaken in a way that I've never been shaken before. Anyone who says this was justified needs to step back and take a look at it again. This was not an act of revenge, nor was it an execution. It was a blatant act of vicious murder. Murder is never justified.

Mr. Berg was a civilian in Iraq. He was working for his own belief of wanting to help the gentle people of Iraq who just want peace. As far as I know (Please correct me if I am wrong) he was in no way working for the US government. He was there on his own free will to try and improve the Iraqi peoples lives. But these radical zealots who have a sick, twisted version of their religion in their mind took this man, and brutally murdered him. His death was not slow, it was not instant. I cannot imagine how his family must feel when they see that. I could not bear to see my sons life ended in such a way.

Now, I am an 18 year old American who will be leaving July 1st to attend basic training and Infantry school for the Army. The military was my dream long before 9/11, so I did not join out of a sudden urge for revenge. Just odd timing I guess. If I am sent to Iraq, I will be more than happy to hunt these terrorists down and try and rid this country of them. I don't think terrorism will ever end.. For everyone terrorist you a kill, a new one is born. I can't bear to see another act such as this though. It sickens me like nothing else.

I do not defend how Bush has handled this war, in fact I do not agree with many things he has done. But I do agree with the fact that we ARE trying to make Iraq better, but each time terrorists try to harm us, it just causes us to have to stay there longer and stalls our withdraw. But I guess they do not see this. They fight because they do not want a democratic system installed in Iraq. They want to be in power themselves, so they can be a dictator just like Saddam was. They do not care for the rest of their fellow Iraqis. They can hate us all they want, but they will not accomplish anything. America is not a country that accepts defeat, and I believe we will stay there until Iraq is ready to stand on its own. I just hope they can withstand the inevitable terrorist attacks which will most certainly be directed against the new government once we leave. All we can do is wait and see once this mess is taken care of.

For those of you who say just nuke them, you are being narrow minded. What a sad display it would be to waste the lives of so many innocent people just to try and bad a few terrorists. Nukes are out of the question. It worked in Japan because the atomic bomb was a brand new thing that the world had never seen. But take a look around, America is no longer the only one with nukes now. We have tried to get other countries to disarm their nuclear arsenal, so what kind of message would they receive if we started using ours? I sure as hell know I wouldn't want to do it with Korea watching. Wake up and be realistic. You can't slaughter innocent people just to kill a few terrorists.

Oh wow, that isn't good. I thought my modem had pooped out when I clicked post and nothing happened. Please feel free to delete all the extra posts... Im very sorry about that, I did not mean to spam.

Alex, it's not a problem. Already fixed.

Great comments. Good luck with your new career--keep your head down, your eyes open, and your will strong. I have a feeling you'll go far.

Thank you for the kind words zombyboy. I just hate when people don't see the grand picture of the situation. Rome was not built in a day, yet people expect America to make the magic kingdom appear over there where everything is perfect, in less than a few months. Things take time, and people have to be patient.

If the terrorists thought that Nick Berg was an "infidel", I think they need to check their definition of the word. after all, if he wasn't an infidel, what reason would they have to kill him? Cause he was trying to improve Iraq? Wow, smart move guys! Let us kill this helpful person, just because he is American! Who cares if he is trying to improve my country! He's American. What a messed up logic. It's a logic that I'll never understand, and I never plan on trying to understand.

Thank you for the kind words zombyboy. I just hate when people don't see the grand picture of the situation. Rome was not built in a day, yet people expect America to make the magic kingdom appear over there where everything is perfect, in less than a few months. Things take time, and people have to be patient.

If the terrorists thought that Nick Berg was an "infidel", I think they need to check their definition of the word. after all, if he wasn't an infidel, what reason would they have to kill him? Cause he was trying to improve Iraq? Wow, smart move guys! Let us kill this helpful person, just because he is American! Who cares if he is trying to improve my country! He's American. What a messed up logic. It's a logic that I'll never understand, and I never plan on trying to understand.

Enough being naïve and hanging every evil on Islam. What does it exactly mean, Islamic terrorism? Use your intelligent minds and think for moment, could religion ever call for any thing but love, honesty, ..etc. Why don’t you call the catastrophic acts of Jewish in Israel Jewish terrorism? Why don’t you call the scandals of molesting children by priests in Churches Christian terrorism? Can’t you see yourself that al these evil acts do not belong to the real religions?
Your CNN working hard to convey a certain message that your government wants you to believe. In fact, let me clarify, a message that the “king makers” want you to believe. Because you don’t work out your mind enough and you don’t exercise it enough, you just take what you see. The king makers are the real enemy, i.e. those who are playing Bush and others as Puppet to the favor of their own benefits whether it is oil or weapons.
Look at the events with a critique eye. 9/11, which is a very highly advanced ad hoc event done by the king makers. How in the world an airplane can even penetrate 100 miles away from the Pentagon. Why all the Jew workers didn’t show up that day in the two towers. Why all the Jew shares been drawn from the markets few days before? Ben Laden, Saddam, and Arafat are agents of the U.S. And who really runs the U.S. The king makers! Ben Laden was always loyal agent who serve the benefits of the US.S. The attack was only one of the orders. Saddam, was a string followers of the American orders. He invaded Kwaite so that the American existence in the Gulf region becomes justified. One bad thing in working as a secret agent is that you might be got rid off when your job is done and you know too much that could hurt the employer. I am not defending Saddam or Ben Laden. They are just devils on earth.
Then, a war that is justified by 9/11. What Iraq, which the largest producer of oil, and the strongest currency over the US dollar, has to do with 9/11.
Even the abuse scandal, it was organized event, however, when gets out of control, they had to make an event that turns attention away from the scandal, while increase the hatred toward Muslims, while lowering Bush’s credibility(they really don’t need him that much now), and while show a need of longer stay in Iraq to get rid of the terrors. Please, have your mind exercise and connect the events together.
Thanks for reading

<shakes head and walks away>

World war 3? I really hope you were joking, whoever said that. To me thats a ridiculous idea. This war was an invasion of a third world country, by several major industrial powers...AKA the coalition. The true 'war' is over. The war that exists now is insurgency and terrorism, not a global convention conflicts where thousands die every day. Need i remind you in World War 2 over 50 million people died.

At the end of the day this whole war was a case of a ridiculous double standard on the part of the coalition. its clear even to the republican hawk fucks, and pro war activists that Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq dont, and never did exist...the only thing Saddam had that even remotely resembled at WOMD were chemical gas shells, surprise surpise supplied to him by the U.S in the 1970's and 80's. Its ok for the U.S to have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, all in the hands of bafoon but it is not ok for anyone else to? I am by no means defending Saddam - he was every bit the evil dictator people make him out to be. But he did not possess weapons of mass destruction, and was certainly not a threat to America! The only threat that exists now is all due to this invasion in the first place...Every soldier or civilian that dies puts more blood on Bush and Blair's hands. The US has no right at all to occupy this country and force its methods of politics upon them.

Why don't some of you cry babies do a quick google on "Lynching in America" and see some of your daddy and granddaddy's handy work. You'll see grinning yokels in Alabama, Mississippi, etc., circa 1950-60 stringing up black men after they were thoroughly brutalized. The TRUTH of the matter is you are no more "humane" than these A-rabs you now want nuked. I call these beheadings and trade center attacks KARMA.

MK, I have never, in my life, lynched anyone. I have also never beheaded anyone. I've also never murdered a civilian or blown up a bus, cafe, bar, or street sidewalk.

The TRUTH of the matter is that here in the US we actually address those wrongs and work to make things better. Terrorism, on the other hand, is flourishing.

You may call it KARMA, but I call you a FOOL.

Thanks for dropping by, but we really don't need any more of your commentary. You are not welcome on this site.

El Barkero, I said it and, no, I wasn't joking. If your small minded enough to think that our entire post-9/11 effort was contained in Afghanistan and in Iraq, then you obviously won't understand the point. Iraq was more an individual battle in that overall effort, as was Afghanistan. Militant Islamic terrorists brought this war to us, and our war is with the systems that support and cause terrorism to flourish.

That means that we need to force change--through diplomacy, economic efforts, military expidition, and, sometimes, kindness--that will allow for political reforms in the Middle East. We also needed to prove that the United States has the power to make life utter hell for any nation that supports terrorism and instability in the Middle East.

When this is all over--if we have done our job well--we will leave behind a radically different Middle East. We won't have completely destroyed terrorism (in the same way that winning World War 2 didn't completely destroy anti-Semitism), but we will have changed the nature of our relationship with Islamic nations. We will have minimized the reason and the desire that they once had to support the terrorists, and we will have minimized the risk that there will be another 9/11 or Madrid bombing.

To believe that this effort in Iraq isn't part of a larger effort that will effect change through a large portion of the world, is to woefully over simplify the face of what the Coalition is trying to do.

As for whether we have the right to occupy and force change on another nation, I would most certainly disagree with you. Hussein brought this on himself. He had every opportunity to be forthcoming about weapons programs, but instead stalled and defied UN inspectors. Instead, he allowed his military to continue to fire on planes in the "no fly" zones. He continued to siphon off what money his country did make through legal and illegal trade to line his own pockets. And when called to account for it all, he defied common sense by threatening the United States.

We carried out our will against an enemy who most certainly did deserve to be removed from power.

I could never offer up an apology or pangs of guilt for seeing Saddam Hussein forced from office. My only disappointment is that we didn't topple his government during the Gulf War.

I said a few harsh words in my earlier post and I would like to take this time to apologize to Z. I wasnt trying to disrespect your site or board I was just angry at the Romanian guy with such a blind hatred for americans as it seemed to me that he hates americans because it's the "thing to do" without knowing the truth about 90 percent of what he talked about. Also just wanted to add something real quick. I'm not a Bush supporter, not by any means and i'm also not a democrat I vote for the candidate that i feel has the best views and Ideas for the country whether democrat or republican or other. With that being said...during the Clinton administration he downsized our military causing a surge in the ammount of reservists. Those soldiers running that prison were in fact reservists who came up with the excuse "we were not trained in the rules of the geneva convention" Granted a crappy excuse but an excuse nonetheless. Anyhow my point being that Bush is under alot of heat right now for the iraqi prisoner abuse scandal but he has not once pointed the finger at Bill Clinton blaming him for downsizing the military. He's taking the full brunt of the blame and not backing down which in my book shows alot of character and shows me that he's a strong person. Now granted I think Bush and Cheney both spend friday nights in some room under the white house counting all their money but I just had to bring that point to light....thanks for your time.

Alright, I have just read this log from top to bottom and what i notice is that the American point of view (at least of these posters) is rather singleminded.
Everybody shows disgust and outrage over the killing of Nick Berg (I saw the video and it made me sick too). But on the other hand many speak of represailles that would no doubt cause harm that is similair, if not greater to many an innocent Iraqi (including women and children).
Also it seems that most posters feel a certain moral superiority over Muslims in general and Arabs specifically. Not only that. There seems to be a lack of acknowledging them as human beings. I refer to the posts with outburst like "nuke them all" and "pull out the big guns", the references of Arabs as animals and islam as a fascist religion bent on world-domination.

I have been to a few Arab countries on holiday and I will tell you what I have seen there. People trying to get by! Living their lifes with their families, trying to make a living, and YES watching the news and being abhorred by it, in the same way most US citizens were by the images of Nick Berg. But the images they get to see are a barrage of violence and death aimed at fellow Muslims and Arabs. In Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and other places. Of children being massacred. They see the images of their holy places defiled and houses destroyed. Wouldn't this make you blind with rage? I would certainly believe so if i see the reaction that the killing of Nick Berg causes. Hell, some are ready to commit genocide over this. Now you know how terrorists are created. Its the same mental process that is occuring now in the US. Only try to imagine you get to see a video of another heinous murder of one of your fellow citizens every day over and over.
I'm not condoning the action of any murder. If it was up to me, we would all be holding hands and singing Kumbaya at a campfire. But i'm just trying to make you understand that people are flawed by nature this way and that, to be truly civilised, one should never assume that they own the moral high ground. Because that will cause you to perceive and treat others as inferior, perhaps even as not-human.

Jester, no problem, I understand. I stray over that line, too. I just want to keep this conversation as civil as possible.

Humpty, I think it is safe to assume that I hold the moral high ground over terrorists. I don't have a problem making that value judgment at all.

If you read back through, you'll find that most of those comments you're talking about (not all, but most) aren't about Islam or Muslims in a general sense, but about Islamic terrorists and Muslim terrorists and the states that support terrorists.

You'll also note that I advocate changing the political systems so that the relationship between the West and the Middle East changes on a fundamental level. Does that sound wrong to you?

The fact that part of this has to happen with military intervention is regrettable, but not surprising. Not every battle in the war will be won at the muzzle of a gun, but not every battle will be a clean and easy diplomatic victory, though. Part of the point in Iraq was also to find a way to prove our intentions in the Middle East--both our willingness to enforce our will when necessary and our desire to help rebuild the society for the benefit of Muslims.

It's no easy task.

Lastly, you keep talking about Americans claiming the moral high ground as if America was of one mind on this subject. You're ignoring the thousands of Americans who opposed this war for a multitude of reasons. You're also ignoring the thought and reasoning that went into supporting this war (for those of us who do). You tell us not to be so quick to judge and to look more closely at the communities that we're at war with, yet you paint your concept of America with a mighty broad brush.

I don't need your moralizing; I've lived in the Middle East and in Africa, and not simply on holiday. I understand your point, but I reject some aspects of it. This isn't some knee-jerk reaction, but a well-considered support of something that I find abhorrent (war) in the pursuit of something that I find good (a more peaceful relationship between the West and the Middle East, and better governing societies for the Muslims of the Middle East).

You've certainly claimed the intellectual high ground, if not the moral. Read through this site and then tell me that I haven't considered the many aspects of this war and the politics of the situation.

Yes, I'm an American. That doesn't make me a moral or intellectual pygmy, so don't treat me as if I were one.

I find it incredible that in one hand these anti-Democracy/Republic thinkers hold Americans as greedy for having so much, and then in the other, as "tyrants" for trying to help another country stand on it's own two feet, thus allowing economic opportunity that the people and country might flourish. Many of these countries we have helped financially, and now that we are holding them to accountablity by helping them out (not a handing-out), we're the jerks?

All this complaining about women and children being killed? What about the hundreds of innocent women and children (and why not men? if they aren't innocent, are they guilty by gender? I think not) killed while shopping, celebrating a birthday, hanging out, riding to work, chatting in the cafes, nightclubs, busses, and corners of Israel? What about the Palestinians who have died in crossfire, simply going to market, a relative's home, school, a hospital to deliver? Innocents always have been and always will be a part of war. Does that make it easy to accept? Do their deaths nullify those millions who will truly live? These are not rhetorical questions... War means sacrifice of the innocent and elimination of the guilty; from both the depths of our pocketbooks and souls. I am not purporting that I would overlook the deaths of any of my loved ones with a simple philosophy. I would mourn and weep, but I think that we have languished in the sandbox too long. It is time for Americans to grow up and I am thinking this war will force many of us to do just that.

It seems from many of the commentors that young Americans are not the only ones who need to grasp and cling to mature thinking. The attitude of "you owe me because you have more and because I want it" is reserved for those still in their mother's wombs. Are we out or in?

There is a moral high ground and those on it are obligated to shout down to those below giving them direction through the craggy crevices and the misleading trails of deception; lest they turn and cast blame for not warning of what lay ahead. Moral relativism leads only to that, morality being relative, not consistently applicable and defined by a whim or convenience.

I know my family history and none of my relatives participated in lynchings and even if they did, they will be held accountable for such shameful acts of inhumanity and degradation (and pardon me, but how is accusing those living right here and now as being responsible for the actions of those so wholly unconnected to them from an American lumping peace-loving Muslims with terrorists?). I can only educate my children and myself as to the history of this country, that they nor I will not repeat it. It seems this is something the terrorists refuse to examine themselves: where they have been and are not going.

I am absolutely frustrated by, but appreciative of this discourse.

I could not bring myself to watch the video of Nick Burg's butchering. It would be too awful to add to my already horrified imagination the graphic of the visual. No one disputes the facts of the matter. But it is good that the debate on this site has progressed from this particular incident to the wider issues.

But I have nearly lost all hope that the matter will be resolved by reason. The terrible deeds committed by both sides have inflamed both sides and created a polarity that cannot be reconciled. We have gone too far. The good will that probably still exists among the moderates is insufficient to rebuild the bridges and repair the fences, and the remaining reservoir is leaking, perhaps at an accelerating rate.

Acknowledging the wrongs committed on our side and resolving never to repeat them is simply lost in the tit for tat, and when the balance of justice is something like cutting off a civilians head in return for making a naked prisoner masturbate, even moderates begin to lose it.

I do not propose for an instant that deploying nuclear weapons is an answer, but I appreciate the feelings of impotent rage that give rise to such sentiments.

I oppose war, having been involved in conflict earlier in my life and learning at first hand that there are at the end of the day few winners and a multitude of losers. Sadly all I see ahead is more war.

For some perspective on what many will view as my pro-American viewpoint (and I am, but not blindly so) I lived in South Africa for thirty five years, but have been in Australia for the past nearly twenty.

I saw the video and became so shocked I could not even cry. May the Berg family receive some relief soon from their grief.

The discourse I have read on this site is interesting. It appears that the ready answer to avenge Nick's death is more death. It is naive of me to think that we should not think this way, but I have to hold out hope that there are like-minded individuals in all religions and from every background that are as equally appalled by the Nick Berg death as they are by the innocent Iraqi civilians who have been disgarded as "collateral damage." The major difference in this most recent atrocity is that the Islamic terrorists have taken the brutality to a new level--by placing on video this enormous horror and openly reveling in the growing terror that Nick shows as he is slowly killed.

But no one group has the monopoly on evil and inhumane acts towards humanity. History has shown us this. And because of this, it is difficult for me to understand how ANY group can claim a moral high ground.

One part of me says the war should end yesterday. We need to pack up and come home and salvage the lives we have left. This war is not worth another human life--no matter what country they are a citizen of. But another part of me says, the terrorists who killed Nick don't need an excuse to kill. They would simply turn their moral authority against the other helpless groups in their midsts--namely women and children as is and has been the case. Now that we are there, I hate to say it, for the sake of the decent people of Iraq who just want to live and thrive and raise their families, we have to finish the job.

But lets do it with less lies, fewer covers, and more integrity than Bush, Rumsfeld and those pitiful "joe-stupid" soldiers of Abu Ghraib have shown to date.

Thanks for reading. Let's all hope and pray this mess ends quickly.
Peace

I pity you Zomby. You cant see beyond any of the shit George Bush is throwing at you, and its painfully obvious. Since the Gulfwar, America and the Western world effectively crippled Iraq with economic sanctions. The reasons for attacking Iraq in the first place are flawed in every respect. Weapons of mass destruction? its been over a year....non have been found. Connections with Al Qaeda? Garbage that was sprouted to get public opinion behind the war. Toppling Saddam? Yes, and he has been replaced by a occupation just as brutal. Iraq will eventually get its government, a puppet no doubt....fervently loyal to the Americans.

Its quite obvious the Iraqi people in general want Sadr as their leader, but no the Americans will never allow that....hes anti American!! What 'Democratic' ideas you and your government have Zomby...

And for the record, Saddam complied ENTIRELY with the weapons inspectors. I think thats obvious, especially since Hanz Blix, the chief weapons inspector directly said that he was. It was BUSH who claimed Saddam was hiding something, which has now blatantly proved not to be the case. Saddam gave virtually unrestricted movement to the weapons inspectors...how is this 'stalling and defying' them? To me it seems like you are clutching at straws here, using flawed information to try and justify this invasion.

You think this war was over Terrorism and instability in the middle east? Using that logic, Israel should of been invaded and occupied decades ago then. This war was about U.S interests in the middle east. Study your History, and you will find the U.S simply does not interfere unless it owns interests are at stake. They clearly arnt making the political situation in Iraq any better

I am constantly amazed by the subjectivity of people in identifying evil...Saddam? Evil. WMD? Evil. Ted Kennedy saying the torture chambers of Iraq are open under new management? Evil. Innocent men, women and children killed in senseless war? Evil.
We live in a fallen world where evil lurks and preys on those who are enamored with it. There is absolute right and absolute wrong. Nobody died when Clinton lied...the high road of many died when he said "that depends on what the meaning of "it" is" (paraphrased).
One thing is for sure. The One True God, The Maker of everything that I see and taste and smell and hear around me...The Almighty Creator who can name the smallest molecule on a star 27,000 light years from this speck we call home will one day make all things new.
The God of Abraham,Isaac, and Jacob...The same God who destroyed King Nebuchadnezzar (located exactly where one of Saddam's palaces was) will come to judge everyone, from Me to Ted to Bill (as well as Hillary). And those who have suffered like Nick Berg will be united in Heaven. And unlike Islam, will be focused on something much bigger than an endless supply of virgins. May God not turn His eyes from the United States. May God have mercy on all of us...down to the poorest in a town called Fallujah.

Nicely said, Wess, and I wholeheartedly concur.

http://marc.perkel.com

NICK BERG WAS KILLED IN ABU GHRAIB

If you want to know the truth have someone listen to the voice of Al Zaqawri again....IT IS NOT HIS VOICE.

Why is Nick Berg in orange prison suit..why do Iraqi police deny ever having him in custody..and what about that white chair in the video..are terrorists and coalition troops shopping from the same suppliers?

Shai, I'm sorry, but I don't deal with conspiracy theories.

El, I have nothing to say to a person who believes that Sadr--who has never managed more than a few thousand followers--is the leader that the people of Iraq have chosen. Your arrogance and pity aren't wanted here, so take a hike. The rest of your commentary was just as reactionary and shallow.

To the rest, thanks for keeping this an interesting and civil conversation. I appreciate the different views and ideas.

I was trying to have a civil argument....it seems at sites seemingly run by bigots i am unable to do this. Oh well little is lost. If you really think Sadr's following is limited to 'a few thousand' i suggest YOU take a hike to Iraq.

If you cant make return comments to my valid...and perfectly civily expressed comments i suggest you just take your discussions down. You clearly arnt open to anyones opinion anyway.

El, you started out your last comment with this:

I pity you Zomby. You cant see beyond any of the shit George Bush is throwing at you, and its painfully obvious.

Right there, you moved past civility.

And, yes, I do say that his following--those militants who have taken up arms for him--doesn't number more than a few thousand, and that number is probably less now.

As for the comments, they stay up. I've always been open to intelligent dissent--you just don't have any to offer up. Your comments are just rabid anti-American sentiment and will be treated as such. As soon as you say the occupation is just as brutal as Hussein's regime, you've lost all credibility.

As for weapons of mass destruction, even Blix doesn't say that Hussein was in compliance with the UN. Compliance required that he not only destroy those weapons, but that he provide proof and complete access to all information and facilities concerning those weapons. He never managed to do that; he was in material violation of UN mandates and never backed off of his search.

El, there is very little civil about you. From calling President Bush a "bafoon" to calling me a bigot, you have been less than civil every step of the way.

You don't like the conversation here, then move on. Don't blame it on me, though. Your intent was to be confrontational; I think I've been more polite than your comments warranted.

I think that whoever thinks this is funny or a joke should really be slapped in the face, because watching this video made me cry, who seriously does that... you say that we did that to blacks a long time ago. its the past we did what we did and we learned from our mistakes. You have no right to sit there and call us murders from the things our ANSESTORS DID and not the new generation. i think ur ridiculous and sutpid for even commenting on that.. and if i should ever see you id make sure to fuck your face up

zombyboy, you have a splendid way of expressing yourself in a time where it is difficult to refrain from screaming out in indignation of the plite of Mr. Nick Berg. I watched it. I move between regretting it and feeling an obligation to see to strengthen my belief in the righteousness of AMERICANS trying to rid the world of tirany. To just leave? To mind our own business? That would be like ignoring cancer hoping it would go away. It would spread. It would never stop. We weep for all our fallen. All of the innocent caught up in it. And, I for certain, weep for Nick's family. I am angry and shaken. If that is what the murderers hoped for then they got it. However, we stand up, dust ourselves off and face it straight on. We don't grab an innocent and commit murder.

Thank you very much. I truly do appreciate the kind words.

LET'S NOT FORGET WHERE TERRORISM STARTED. DO YOU REMEMBER NOT LONG AGO WHITE PEOPLE BEAT,RAPED,BE-HEADED,TORTURED AND SOLD YOUNG CHILDREN FROM THEIR
PARENTS SO THEY PROSPER. BUT THEY DO NOT EXPRESS
THAT AS TERRORISM. WHY ?????????????????????????
MY PEOPLE AND I HAVE BEEN LIVING ON HIGH ALERT FOR
OVER 400 YEARS.

Bonzie, two things to consider: we fought a bloody war to end that practice in the United States, too.

See, we police our own; when we see something wrong, we do our best to take care of it. What do we call it? We call it slavery. We call it evil.

Your "high alert" comment is really just sound bit posturing proven by the second thing to consider: in what nations is slavery still practiced? Hint, it isn't in these nations of the west that you seem to consider to be "terrorists".

What A dumb comment to make!!!!! You are not a slave and I am not a slave owner. That is the past and all the posts here are about the present. Get real!!!!!

What A dumb comment to make!!!!! You are not a slave and I am not a slave owner. That is the past and all the posts here are about the present. Get real!!!!!

K you know what yeah the beheading was terrible but the arabs just whated to show that they could do the same thing, as you recall a couple weeks ago we heared about AMERICAN soldiers doing bassically the same thing, as i remember the iraqis were unclothed, unfed and forced to masturbated while the soldiers took pictures and made them public

The prisoners who are in those pictures still have heads!!!!! Great comparison.

Natalia, as Marc said, those aren't even close to the same thing. I don't make excuses for the soldiers in the prison scandal (as anyone who reads this site regularly knows), but what happened to those prisoners is nothing compared to losing your life in such a brutal manner.

Further, linking the two is wrong. Daniel Pearl was killed in a pretty similar manner, on video, by a sympathetic group of terrorists, and that was a hell of a long time before what happened in the prison. The terrorists are just looking for any excuse to make it seem as if they have a reasonable cause; they are still the same viscious bastards that they were at the beginning of the day.

I WAS NOT ABLE TO SEE THE VIDEO OR WHEN IT WAS ON LINE IF THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE THAT COULD GET ME IN TOUCH WITH A COPY OR WHAT NOT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT FOR MYSELF. I HAVE BEEN GIVEN DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON THE WHOLE THING AND I WOULD LIKE TO VIEW IT MYSELF.I WANT TO ANILIZE IT IN DETAIL. I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT IT MIGHT BE A FAKE AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF THAT MIGHT BE THE CASE. I WILL SAY THAT I DO "WORK" WITH THE POLICE BUT AM NOT AN OFFICER NOR AM I ON ANY "FORCE". I AM ONLY AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WANTS TO MAYBE "SHED SOME LIGHT" ON THE REALISM OF THE WHOLE AFFAIR. THANK YOU.

I WAS NOT ABLE TO SEE THE VIDEO OR WHEN IT WAS ON LINE IF THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE THAT COULD GET ME IN TOUCH WITH A COPY OR WHAT NOT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT FOR MYSELF. I HAVE BEEN GIVEN DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON THE WHOLE THING AND I WOULD LIKE TO VIEW IT MYSELF.I WANT TO ANILIZE IT IN DETAIL. I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT IT MIGHT BE A FAKE AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF THAT MIGHT BE THE CASE. I WILL SAY THAT I DO "WORK" WITH THE POLICE BUT AM NOT AN OFFICER NOR AM I ON ANY "FORCE". I AM ONLY AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WANTS TO MAYBE "SHED SOME LIGHT" ON THE REALISM OF THE WHOLE AFFAIR. THANK YOU.

How very amusing these commects are!! What makes me laugh is the inherent idiocy of Americans. I would suggest that you all look a lot closer to home if y'all truely wish to lay the blame of this dastardly deed. You know today i was watching a documentary on the history of the Ku Klux Klan and how they reigned terror on the innocents of yesteryear. Women were raped, men were lynched, and unborn babies were torn from their mothers wombs. You Americans are the children of hate, evil, and destruction. You have destroyed and wiped out races of people just so you could declare your conquered land: The United States of America!! The oppressed native American and African have had their humanity reduced to below that of a beast, thanks to America. Today is the first time that America (white America that is) is scared for its life! What you reap you sow, and what comes around goes back around. Know that the sins of the fathers always fall on his children. Enjoy your henceforth existence in fear, anger, injustice, and retribution

Zomby Boy says:
El Barkero, I said it and, no, I wasn't joking. If your small minded enough to think that our entire post-9/11 effort was contained in Afghanistan and in Iraq, then you obviously won't understand the point.

That was the uncivil comment that made me say i pity you.
As far as im concerned ive tryed to have an intelligent discussion but you either dismiss my points entirely, make wild claims on the following of Al Sadr, with no evidence whatsoever and call me an Anti-American, for my opinions on Bush and on this war. I suggest you take a big long rethink on what you are saying here.

By no stretch of the imagination am i Anti-American. Id like you to point out the comment(s) that made you think that. I increasingly see Americans like yourself, who when i point out obvious things like Bush is a bafoon and the reasons behind the invasion are completely flawed hit me with the anti-american card. Yes, i believe the treatment of the prisoners at Abu Gharaib is little better than Saddams treatment of prisoners. It certainly isnt a step in the right direction, and is no way to get this occupied nation to trust our coalition. You cant call Saddam a usurper of human rights, and have soldiers physicaly and mentally torturing men in blatant defiance of the Geneva convention.

My intent was by no means to be confrontation, but merely to provide a second side to an argument that seemed to have 1 side. When i see more than 1 post of something along the lines of 'lets nuke the fuckers' i feel like i have to make a contribution.

I really don't know what to say after what i have seen. All I know is that am crying very hardly and my heart is mourning this person and this inhuman way of execution which islam and Allah deny and cannot accept. All i know throughout my islamic education that this is not an islamic behaviour and has nothing to do with islam and that islam is against these acts especially when you have detainees. Islam advises to treat them in good manners and history and Qoraan are witness for that. But all i know is that usa has a hand in the publication of this video and the execution of this person and has worked together to hide the truth of what happened in abu ghraib jail just as they did when they killed 1000 soldiers on a boat in the era of kennedy to make their war against cuba logical.This is policy and politics have no heart even if the subject is a citizen. So this is not astonishing that they can do that another time as they did with this person and the prisonners in abu ghraib don't forget also that they raped women there and they killed people and this we can't see cause it is not published and the proof is also the person muffled in plastic and put alive into the fridge. All i have to say is that muslims believe that they will not fight anyone until they are fought with the same manner as they are fought with and islam in this respect would advise us to be with a heart and forgive after being asked for forgiveness. It would be very wise if americans after catching sadam and dissolving the baath party that they have left iraq to its people all muslims will have respect for them and love as they did the first time the americans entered iraq, but when usa's greediness for petrol becomes big then inhuman acts begin to appear and it's normal that many reactions to this behaviour will appear. Americans know the problem of palestine and iraq so pull out this problem and stop supporting israeli violation of human law and u will see the change none will hate americans or seek to be barbarous and every mankind on earth should know that only justice could bring love may Allah curse those who are not doing justice be they muslims or non muslims and may Allah make peace and justice rule this earth ameen.
in my feelings i think that this person has reverted to islam and military soldiers want to offer him as a sacrifice to disguise their acts in abughraib and to make their image clean after it has been spoilt by bad orders coming from their government the killers could be the mediaters who work with usa military forces for their greed to get money as do americans have greed to get petrol
in all this only Allah the creatour of the universe and humankinds knows best