ZB, you may well be assuming facts not in evidence. You are assuming that the Welfare, Affirmative Action and the education establishments are controlled by people who bear good will toward those minorities. What if the people who designed those programs actually bore ill will? Consider history. Who fought the Civil War on the proslavery side? Who passed the Jim Crow laws in the post Civil War South? Who filibusterd against the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Who fought the Voting Rights Act? Who 'stood in the schoolhouse door' to keep segregated schools? Who passed the Welfare legislation and other parts of LBJ's Great Society? Who controls the school boards of every major city in America? Who runs the NEA? The answer to every one of those questions is Democrats.
Suppose the Dems haven't changed their objective of keeping minorities down, merely their tactics?

Hey, Peter, welcome. I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with it all. That isn't to say that you don't raise and interesting point, but that many of my friends lean to the left and I know for a fact that they aren't racists. They simply believe in trying to achieve the same goal in a very different way--and, I believe, in a way that has proven itself a failure.

I do think that there's a great number of people who have invested what they are and what they have in the racialization of politics, and those people use affirmative action (and anything else they can possibly twist) to maintain power and stature. Jesse Jackson springs to mind...

Just remember that the leadership doesn't neccessarily reflect the rank and file. How many members of the Communist Party in the old USSR gave a damn about what Stalin or Kruschev thought and how many joined because that was the way to advancement?
The Democrat Party was founded on racism, and stayed with racism all the way to my young manhood. Their policies hurt minorities durring the Draft Riots in New York City during the Civil War, they hurt minorities in the Jim Crow days and they're hurting minorities today. I don't need to believe in black helicoptors to see a pattern.
I don't insist you believe this, I don't know that I do, I'm not privy to the private conversations between Ted Kennedy and Terry McCauliff and the rest of that bunch.
I do know a couple of things, one is that people don't usually change very much. I grew up around a bunch of racist sonsabitches. Most of them are still racist. They were mostly Dems then, they're still Dems.
Jesse Jackson? On the old plantations there were slaves who worked and stayed in the big house instead of the cabins by the fields. They'd often sell out the field hands to keep their comfortable jobs. Just like Jesse is doing now.

Peter has an interesting perspective. I'm not sure that the motivation behind the Democrats when it comes to racs and class warfare is racists, however. This reminds me of a recent conversation I had with my girlfriend regarding the teachers union. Schools should exist for the benefit of the students but the teachers union exists for the benefit of the teachers. This is a clear conflict of interest if I ever saw one. As has been siggested before (by many others), people like Jesse Jackson depend on racial inequality for their positions. If the problems that they claim to be addressing ever do get solved, they are out of jobs. I would chalk up his actions more to amoral self-interest than to racist malice. The end result is the same, however. Many of the people who claim to be a part of the solution are actually part of the problem.

That sounds very much the way I feel on the subject. I also think that there are a ton of deluded folks who believe that what they are doing is making a positive difference. They never bother to consider the facts, just their feelings on the subject.

Just wanted to make a few comments on these issues. First of all, we all know that Affirmative Action has not achieved what it was supposed to. Mainly, because it is inherently flawed. If we are looking for equality in a manner as to address past discrimination, that equality cannot be achieved through hand-outs, quotas, and set-asides. Author James Bryce has written of two types of equality envisioned by the founders. The first is one that everyone has by merely being a citizen of the U.S. The right to vote, hold office, speak their mind and so forth. The second type of equality has to be earned through education and intelligence. For your peers to truly respect you, you must be on the same level as them intellectually. Almost every group that has entered the United States (including my ancestors, the Irish) have had to overcome adversity and discrimination. This has been achieved mainly through education. Although the African-American community has been victimized through slavery, they still have not fully assimilated into American culture 150 years later. Why is this? Historically we have placed this group as a victim, and have given them too much pity. Was slavery wrong? Of course. Was discrimination wrong? Yes. Has it occurred to every other immigrant group in our history? Of course. So what's the problem here. Instead of encouraging the African-American commmunity to assimilate like every other group in history, figures such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (so called leader of their community) have cried foul-play, and continue to label their community as vicitms, instead of working to educate them. Equality cannot be achieved through hand-outs and quotas. It must be earned and worked for (the second type of equality, not the inherent one). As long as we continue to "feel sorry" for minorities and give them breaks, they will not assimilate. Education is the only way to move up in social status, and the problem is at the source...grade school, middle school, and high school. These are the real battle grounds, not higher education. By the time an uneducated minority gets through high school, they are already unprepared for college and so forth. What Jackson and Sharpton are afraid to admit, is maybe their problems are themselves, and their community. Perhaps the values in these communities need to change? Remember, it takes a change in heart before the mind can change.

In the history of the United States, African Americans have always been discriminated against. When Africans first came to America, they were taken against their will and forced to work as laborers. Think of the damage that is done to a person because they are not able to make their own decisions. They became slaves to the white rich, greedy, unethical, immoral, and lazy Americans. They were given no pay and often badly whipped and beaten.

Can we then say that these dramatic events have nothing to do with society today? The fact that anyone would say racism is not a big problem is ludicrous. Not only are there many racist people in my own debate class, but these so called "angry white men" need to look past the promotion and think about the lives of others. This does not just impact blacks(who bought them here in the first place), but native americans(whose land did the white people take?), latinos, mexicans(remember the what? Alamo??? Whose land was that?) The overall trend that we see here is the white men taking over land, and now they want to regain status in Corporate America.

Is Affirmative Action fair? HELL YES!!!

to timona,
I agree with you in only one aspect of your above comments and that is that racism is still a big problem today. That is not to say blacks are not a part of it either. I do not see how slavery can be used as a relevant excuse for affirmative action. Anyone affected by slavery is long dead. You know blacks are not the only race that has gone through tough times. The Jews have an entire cultural history of persecution. The holocaust was a horrifying experience for all those who were victims of it, but yet I have not heard of any Jews complaining that they need extra help because of it. They somehow found a way to get over it and become a very successful group. And to act as if America is the same racist society it was during the MLK days is hogwash. As Frederick Douglass himself said, “And if the Negro cannot stand on his own two legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!…Your interference is doing him positive injury”. I also wonder why asians are not present in the affirmative action plan. This must be because in order to be considered a minority, you cannot be successful. Asians have the highest median income, 44% have bachelor degrees, they have a low crime rate, and high family stability. Case closed, asians are not minorities, even though they only make up around 11% of the US population. How does it help increase diversity when only blacks, hispanics, and native americans are considered. What about Asians, jews, and low-income families. Accordng to a study that looked at 143 of the nations eleite collges and universities, people from the lower quartile of income make up only 3% of the student body at 143. While 73% of the blacks attending are from the Upper quartile. Doesnt sound like diversity to me.

I have heard of a Hopeful New Path to Equality!

I believe Affirmative Action is too entrenched a parasite to be removed without killing the patient; America.

When AA was first created, only Blacks ( African Americans if you like ) qualified. They represented around 1/10 of the population. This meant that the rest of us sacrificed 1/9 of our education/job opportunities to provide some relief for the oppressed Blacks.

Today, pandering politicians, special interest lobbyist and activist courts have expanded the system until almost everyone but white males qualified. That means that the WMs (white males) must sacrifice 4 opportunities each for the other 8 fo 10 Americans. And its not just college admissions anymore; scholarships, grading policies, student housing, health care, legal advice, job placement services, you name it, it will have an AA bias.

The status of average blacks ( not to mention Latinos and White Women ) is very close to that of AVERAGE White Men. That is, if you remove people who make more that $250,000 a year from the statistics, white men make slightly less than Non White Men. The "Progress" made in the last thirty years of reducing the Average Income of ALL white men to something a little higher than the national average income, has been mainly at the expense of low to middle income white men. The true inheritors of America's Racist/Sexist past, Rich, Elite, Whites such as the Kenedys, DuPonts, Hearsts, Rockerfellers and Kerrys have used their money and influence to keep themselves aloof from the effects of AA.

Frankly, if AA applied only to true minority of the citizenry, e.g. Blacks only, it would not be a burden nor burning political issue. But it now benefits a voting majority who has been indoctrinated into a Cult of Victimization and there is little hope that the Qualified Minorities will find the wisdom to reject Affirmation Action before its rank injustice, divisiveness, and hypocrisy starts a Race War which will destroy America.

However, while reading a similar debate site, I happened across a novel Idea. If all of the people who believe in a color blind society were to gather together into one state, namely Alaska and then form a secessionist government and separate from the Union. I know this sounds extreme, but waiting around for an enviable Race War isn't exactly sane. I am not talking about creating a White Only society, my wife is Latino. I am not advocating violence, but rather a formal, legal Declaration of Independence. Alaska was wise enough to place a secession clause in its State Constitution.

Just the pursuit of such a cause would be a loud wake up call to Liberal America.

Image a Race Blind Society!

It is ominous, as you say, that we are being pushed towards such racial and ethnic conflicts. Especially when,after numerous referendums have gone against affirmative action, the officials have defied the orders of the people on this subject. Such a policy is itself like an insurrection. In order to start conflict, it may sometimes be helpful to conspicously close off peaceful means of change which are open to the majority. If this is not so, our theory about democracies being naturally more peacable is wrong. Your apprehension is justified, but doesn't it actually require a president to be elected who himself very much wants this kind of war, in order to start it and keep it going? It would seem that we would do better to not elect a power-seeking presidential candidate. You do well sending a message to such potential power-seekers even though all you do is discuss such possibilities before the public, as you have done here.Our enemy may be counting on the element of surprise and on moral unpreparedness; call them evil for trying to use race as a tool to gain power!

Preliminary Thinking on Affirmative Action

You just haven?t earned it yet, baby. You just haven?t earned it, my sonnnn. You just haven?t earned it yet, baby. I always have a song in my head-strike that-I usually have a song in my head when I first wake up. That was the one today. Didja like it? I knew thatcha would! Hawhaw. My current obsession? Affirmative action. And nebulous do-good, liberal thinking that doesn?t stand up to close scrutiny. Blacks have it so damn good in this country, really. Still the majority seem to bitch and moan and play the victim, even when they can?t remember when they themselves have been the victim of racism during their lives. They just know it?s been there. What a disempowering way to think. When you go the victimization route you place your power in the hands of someone else. Did Colin Powell get where he did because he constantly looked for signs that he was being discriminated against? I really doubt it. Even if you see that you are, you adapt. Only then do you keep the power in your hands. As soon as you demand that someone else change, you have disempowered yourself since your expectations are now dependent on someone else.

At the heart of white liberals? overwhelming support of affirmative action is white guilt and the feeling that they have to undo the wrongs that blacks have suffered over the years. So what do they do? They do what feels good, even if it means avoiding a good hard look at the fundamental factors involved in the issue. It is a quick fix, not a thoughtful examination of the underlying causes of why blacks, hispanics, and native americans lag behind other ethnic or racial groups. And why do they lag behind. Ah, that?s a tough question. I?ll just throw out some contributing factors, as I see it: the widespread belief that doing well in school is ?acting white?, parents who do not instill the kind of values that make academic success more likely, bad schools-schools that are a reflection of the indifference of the people in their districts, feelings of intellectual inferiority, at least when it pertains to academic achievement, and, perhaps-and this is the cause that dares not speak its name-genetic inferiority. Such an ugly way to put it, I know, but, perhaps, just perhaps, the genetic component is the most important factor of all. I am not willing to accept that, but I also believe it?s quite possible. Afterall, some blacks, hispanics, and native americans have study habits that are just as good as whites. Why are they unable to compete on a level playing field? It could just be a question of numbers. First of all, whites make up the majority, second, the percentage of whites who do have proper study habits is greater than the percentage of those in the aforementioned groups who do, which increases whites? percentages of those ?doing the right things? that much more.

Take the black population, which makes up 12% (it might be 13%) of the total U.S. population. All else being equal, you would think that blacks would make up 12% of the elite group of students. They do not. Why is that? If only 10% of blacks (this is a guess, of course) are doing all they can to maximize their chances of academic success, whereas 25% of whites are, the percentages of those ?doing the right things? becomes skewed even more in favor of whites. I?d have to see some statistics, but I know one thing. Affirmative action is a band-aid that makes it less likely that people will examine the real reasons for why there is such a disparity between the races and ethnic groups. It?s a complicated issue, one that I?m sure I will think about more in the future. Good day!

Awwwww, my post (a long one) didn't go through.

I am a young black female. I was born and raised in New Orleans
I feel AA is nessisary without it many blacks from the US can't have a chance because of racial descrimanation. I know many blacks that didn't get the job, the opportuinity because they were BLACK. not because of there inntellect there manners or anything nessacary to get the job.IT IS NEEDED because some other races aren't educated on the black commmunity so they take it out on us on blacks. Another reason why is because there just being asses (excuse my French)and only want the white man or the spanish person to make it the want sometimes to keep us blacks down it is needed so great people great balcks in this world can make it without descrimination in this world

For hundreds of years African Americans have been put down. They have been made made to believe that they were inherently inferior to their white counterparts and have been systematcially kept out of the best jobs and schools. As a result they have in many respects become a broken people. It is not that they are genetically inferior as someone hinted in an earlier post, but that because if the systematic opression their culture has changed. It has developed into one that does not see hope for the American Dream because they have been disappointed too often in the past.

In the past many African Americans have not been able to succeed aaginst racism, try as they may, and thus they lost hope. They then passed their defeated spirits on to their children. So now in the black community there seems to be an idea that acting intelligently is a somehow related to being white because they associate faliure with their Blackness. Faliure has become the legacy of Black America. Seeing no possibility of success Black Americans do not try for the sucess they are capable of. This is why so many people from outside of the United States of similar ancestry (ie the Carribean and Africa)are able to succeed in America where Black Americans fail, because they have hope that they will succed and thus work to achieve their dreams.

The cultural change that needs to happen in the black community must come from within. Hope must be reawakened in this culture for their people to succeed. But at the same time the only way that hope can be reawakened is if there are the facilities avaliable for African Americans to suceed in the first place. They must have schools that are equally good as those of other ethnic groups starting from elementary school. The past opression of people in the black community puts many African Americans at a disadvantage financially so that the are unable to afford better schools for their children. That is where affirmative action comes in. It allows African Americans a chance at the better paying jobs that they have been kept out of in the past. With better access to funds and a true taste of success they can go back to their communities and build them back up.