Great. Now I'm going to go around all afteroon singing that bit of Verdi. Original words, though, thankyouverymuch. Heh.

Good point, though. There's a fine line. Sad thing is, they aren't even funny anymore. They're just kind of, well, sad.

Pathetic.

Hell, I welcome a good, intelligent debate, but this just isn't it...

The prevailing pressure is always to conform. Anti-globalization and anti-american beliefs are now the standard position for most in the UK, in my experience. It's less effort than independent thought innit?

(bet the buggers still pop into McDonalds for the occasional Big Mac from time to time)

First, what is war ?
Killings, destruction of families and homes, broken lives, bloodbaths, you walk in the streets and recognize the bodies of those you love lying there. This is war. This is what you want when you say you want war. Dont tell me this is a necessary way for peace.

Why that war ? Because Sadam Hussein is a danger for the world, he's got a gigantic army (we now know its false) and massive destruction weapons (wich have still not been found), so bush and his men decide to destruct a country and kill people, so that Saddam Hussein cannot kill people and destruct countries (a bit paradoxal isnt it ?)

Saddam Hussein was a sick monster, so he had to be replaced. But why now, after ten years of embargo and bombings wich made the people suffer and didnt affect Hussein ?
And he's not the only dictator in the world so why especially Iraq ?

Second, what is peace? The absence of war. But since it only takes one side to start a war, that brings us to:
Third, what is peace when someone refuses to go to war? Oppression, tyranny, theft, abuse, murder, rape, poverty, the inability to defend yourself or your loved ones from the above. Exactly what things were like in Iraq.
So, apparently, Muffin Man would really like to have his mother raped right in front of him and then be fed into a shredder feet first, simply because he dared to say something against the government. Or he doesn't care if it happens to someone else, because nothing is worth distracting him from his side's goal of 90% income taxes, universal health care, and a running start on socialism in the style of Stalin and Mao Zedong (who managed to kill off nearly 40 million of their own citizens...)
Yeah, your logic is compelling, Muffin Man.

peace does not exist, war is just when things get official
"Oppression, tyranny, theft, abuse, murder, rape, poverty"
man you really should start a war in the usa so that things get better
"the inability to defend yourself or your loved ones from the above"
tell me WHO can do that? who is able to control his life and to not have troubles ?
"So, apparently"
apparently...
"Muffin Man would really like to have his mother raped right in front of him... "
Well,er...no.
"...and a running start on socialism..."
I dont believe in socialism, capitalism, or any political idea that include a totally materialist vision of mankind.
Missed.

Well, then, WHY do you oppose the war in Iraq, since we put a huge damper on many of these evil things?
I admit, I put words into your mouth, but they are consistent with the other things you are advocating.
As far as a war in the US to stop rape, murder and torture...well, the states that don't restrict guns and allow concealed carry have far lower rates of all sorts of crimes than places like LA, DC, NY, Chicago, St. Louis, etc...

MM, I'm not a person who "wants" war--and I don't think the majority of Americans who supported the effort are, either. Just because I don't want to see a war happen, just because I recognize the dangers and horrors involved, though, doesn't mean that I don't think there are times when war is the correct response.

As you pointed out, we waited over a decade to carry this one through--and I wish we wouldn't have. Saddam was a horrible human being, and Iraq is better without him pulling the country's strings. Ultimately, the Middle East will be better for our effort as well.

Not every situation demands the same response, so the fact that we did this in Iraq does not automatically mean that we will do the same thing in Iran or Syria, for instance. Other forms of pressure can work to create change in other situations; 12 years of UN pressure, though, failed to produce any changes in Iraq.

I'm glad we went in, I'm terribly sorry for those who died and for those who loved them, and I'm saddened that we didn't take this path earlier. If we had done so 5 or 7 or 10 years ago, the Middle East would be a different place today.

Where I recognize that not all people who opposed this war opposed for frivolous or foolish reasons, understand that not everyone who supported the effort is some blood-thirsty warmonger who wanted to see Muslims die.

War is sometimes necessary; it is my belief that this was one of those times.

I deeply believe there was many other ways than such an extremity as war to be tried.
But what Bush wanted is a war. The explication of that curious obsessional behaviour can be that war is a good way to make money, it even has been USA's business basic for a long time.
I think the true reasons of the war are economic ones and that Bush doesnt give a fuck about Iraqi's happiness(wich is a warm gun)(just a bit of poetry in this world of brutes).

And your willingness to demonize your opponents without even considering alternatives is the precise reason that having this conversation is useless.

My opponents ? What opponents ????

Your political opponents.

Well i'm opposed to the war but i dont have opponents, i just try to discuss.